Invisibility changes?

[Thimblyjoe]

I know that invisibility is already quite powerful, but I was just thinking that it could use a bit of a lift on the defensive end. I think it's a little ridiculous that they just drop back when they are on defense. Would it be too hard to make them capable of holding ground?

 

[Yaotzin]

I think that allowed invisible units to defend would be a performance problem, as every time a unit moved it would have to check if there's an invisible unit in the plot. Not to mention the problems of having no idea how powerful the unit is etc. Invisibility is already very powerful (including defensively), allowing defending at will would make it even more so.

 

[WarKirby]

Aren't units already checking what's in plots every time they move anyhow ? What would the difference be ?

As is now, Nox Noctis can actually be a very bad thing, as it leaves you so incapable of defending your own territory.

 

[Yaotzin]

Don't know if they already check, but even if they do it would add another thing to check. I believe Kael removed the Forest Stealth promotion because units were having to check if they were in a forest every time they moved which was a big performance hit, I figure this would be similar.

Nox Noctis is outstanding for defending. Without zone of control like SMAC an active defense is the only viable one anyway. Unless you luck out with a chokepoint I guess, in which case you shouldn't build it

 

[Kael]

It wouldn't add any performance impact.

Personally I don't like the idea of invisible units defending because the whole point is they are hidden and they only attack when you want them too. Making them attackable (albeit randomly) steals a lot of their magic.

 

[WarKirby]

Luck has nothing to do with it. Chokepoints are everywhere if you choose the Erebus map type.

More importantly, fighting defensively isn't just for chokepoints. You can plant units on hills and forests, to prevent enemies using them tactically to move through your terrain, and force them to cross open ground instead where they're an easier target.

Just not building it is pretty unacceptable. It has other bonuses too, and being completely unable to use such a key component of the game as defending tiles is a ridiculous trade off.


Units are already checking all sorts of things when they move. If you try to set a destination point for a unit on another continent, the cursor turns red, because there's an ocean in the way. Likewise, the pathfinder detects if there are mountains or enemy units blocking the way, and determines that reaching the destination isn't possible. That has to take FAR, FAR more precessing power than simply checking the properties of the tile you're on.

 

[WarKirby]

Kael, how about giving invisible units the option to reveal themselves, then. If you have nox noctis, grant hide and reveal spells to all units within your borders, so they can become visible to defend, and hide otherwise.

 

[Nor'easter]

I don't think there's anything "unacceptable" or "ridiculous" about Nox Noctis. Since players know what it does, they can choose whether they want it to be part of their game plan or not.

I've actually found it quite useful: my workers can improve tiles without fear of capture, so I don't have to divert military units to protect them; units like mages and archmages, which are normally vulnerable to attack by enemy assassins, are instead safe because of their invisibility; injured units can heal without being at risk of being picked off by opponents.

So, I'd say keep it as it is.

 

[Neomega]

I don't think there's anything "unacceptable" or "ridiculous" about Nox Noctis. Since players know what it does, they can choose whether they want it to be part of their game plan or not.

Well... not. Maybe if they come to the forums... but I played 25 hours before building Nox Noctis, and was pissed when I found out I could no longer hold fortifications.



However, now that I am used to it, it really is awesome. A completely different gameplay, that takes different planning. Had I known how it worked form the beginning, I would have done my magic a bit differently.

 

[Nor'easter]

Well... not. Maybe if they come to the forums... but I played 25 hours before building Nox Noctis, and was pissed when I found out I could no longer hold fortifications.



However, now that I am used to it, it really is awesome. A completely different gameplay, that takes different planning. Had I known how it worked form the beginning, I would have done my magic a bit differently.

There's information in-game about the effects of Nox Noctis -- I forget if it's in the 'pedia or the mouseover when deciding whether to build it, but it's there. You're right that it can take you by surprise the first time, as it did me, but in that case you just adjust your gameplay on the fly.

 

[Neomega]

There's information in-game about the effects of Nox Noctis -- I forget if it's in the 'pedia or the mouseover when deciding whether to build it, but it's there. You're right that it can take you by surprise the first time, as it did me, but in that case you just adjust your gameplay on the fly.

Not really, I dont think there is anywhere that mention how the invisibilty works. I assumed it worked like ghost's invisibility, which switches off after you attack, and you can turn back on next turn. But it didn't.

 

[Inkling]

special ability for invisible units, ambush. causes them to defend when units attempt to enter the tile they are in, otherwise its retreat as usual. realisticly i am wanting to give them bonuses when undetected, but would probably make them overpowered.

then you are still fighting when you want, and your invisible units can defend

 

[Isotope]

Kael, how about giving invisible units the option to reveal themselves, then. If you have nox noctis, grant hide and reveal spells to all units within your borders, so they can become visible to defend, and hide otherwise.

You have this option in Fall further.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

The problem with that is that FfH does not (anymore, as the capacity existed in Vanilla FfH but was removed in BtS, before Xienwolf added it back in FF though a somewhat faster method) have the ability to remove promotions when the unit moves out of your boarders (or when your boarders moves away from the units). You could easily make spells to give of remove visibility promotions from units owned by the owner of Nox Noctis, but even if they must be in boarder in order to gain invisibility they would be able to keep it when they leave.

 

[Fafnir13]

Make ambush work like mask. It's an ability you have to activate that forces invisible units to defend when something enters their square. The invisible unit reveals itself when defending but will become invisible once again at the start of it's owners turn.
Would that be workable?

 

[zup]

I thought Mask gives HN for Esus recon.

I rather like the FF way that I can choose if my unit is invisible or not. So my little adepts can hang back in safety while my longbowmen hold their ground. (It really ruined one of my early games that I could not hold my 1 tile mountain pass hill citadel.)

I also like to let them inside my borders (invisible workers can build new farms quickly). Then I 'close' my borders and let invisible units take care of them. Attacking gives more xp than defending after all.

 

[WarKirby]

The problem with that is that FfH does not have the ability to remove promotions when the unit moves out of your boarders (or when your boarders moves away from the units).

I don't quite understand what you're saying here.

What about the Defender trait? That gives the homeland promotion when you're inside your own borders, and takes it away when you leave. Am I misunderstanding something ?

 

[Brokenbone]

I like the FF solution best.

I wonder though, whether in absence of that, or combination with that, when someone mentioned ambushes, whether maybe annoyance-level defensive strikes might be the answer. You walk through a completely hidden archer's tile (or someone with drill), and you may get several potshots against you, however they won't stick around to "fully" engage you in a combat. Again, kind of like using first strikes, and then going to ground once you're out of first strikes.

Still makes a non-drill having legion of melee troops sitting there complacent as an enemy stack walks in and pillages the tile they're standing on, but I guess that means they have to move a tile away, then move a tile back in to "attack", oh well, active defense and micromanagement of same.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

I don't quite understand what you're saying here.

What about the Defender trait? That gives the homeland promotion when you're inside your own borders, and takes it away when you leave. Am I misunderstanding something ?

nope. the homeland promotion remains, it's the effect it has on the unit that's different depending on wether you're inside or outside your borders.

 

[xienwolf]

Allowing Invisible units to conduct defensive strikes would be the only approach to ambushes which doesn't sound completely horrific for planning strategy against. It would be essentially the same as walking through a large swatch of Ancient Forests. You know there is a CHANCE something bad might happen, but it is nothing which will outright kill you, and it can be dealt with.