Is it worth delaying National college for future gainz?

[DubiousSquirrel]

I'm playing my first Prince game with Washington. Had a great start with plenty of food and production, but no jungle so its kinda meh as far as science is concerned. My scouts spotted at least two nice city locations I could reasonably hope to snatch before my three (Korea, Celts, Germany) neighbors settle them.

I need my 2nd city placed in good but jungleless spot because its closer to capital and will help to contain Boudica in the corner of the continent. However 3rd planned city site is pure riverside jungle with 3-4 hills and some bananas. That city could produce beakers like crazy after education. I am under impression that one should strive to build National College ASAP, but in my case NC would benefit my 3rd city the most. I cant figure out what to do - plant NC at my capital or put it off for rather long time. Can more science starting from late medieval period compensate for less science earlier?

 

[Heathcliff]

It is probably better to build the national college in your capital than in the junglecity.
Because the capital is likely larger so you get more advantage of the NC right now.
And that increased science now will get you faster to universities, and universities gets you faster to rationalism and rationalism gets you faster to public schools and so on.

But of course it would be good if you made a screenshot, then it would be easier to give advice.

 

[DubiousSquirrel]

But of course it would be good if you made a screenshot, then it would be easier to give advice.

Ill post one when I get home - at work atm.
But yea that was my line of thinking as well. I'm just imagining all those jungle tiles producing 3 science x 1.5 and it makes me greedy

 

[Mesix]

I often build my NC in my 2nd or 3rd city. I always try to get a mountain next to this city to ensure that I can build NC and Observatory. It is also nice to have a river next to it to get the Watermill for some extra food and production early on. The key is to send internal caravans (merchant fleets if it is coastal is even better) to this city from all of your other cities delivering food for maximum growth. This city should easily pass your capital in population if you have picked an ideal location with a lot of food. I almost always expand to at least 4 cities before building NC and pick the city with the best potential science (both from growth and from tile yields like your jungle example).

 

[stormtrooper412]

Absolutely. Rule of thumb is that NC always goes to the cap because of the pop. It will pay off in the long run by having multiple decent cities compared to one decent city (cap) by the time NC is online

 

[DubiousSquirrel]

Ok so here are the pics.

Spoiler :

The planned NC site is where my settler is standing. I didn't notice at first, but New York (my 2nd city) could be nicely planted next to Mt Kailash for observatory. Also I grabbed extra site near some gold and big ass lake with some sea food due to Korean dude losing his settler to barbarians.

NC site close up:

Spoiler :

Here are my situation in late renaissance. I took out Boudica due to her pissing me off with great prophets spam. Her capital is nothing special as far as I can tell which is surprising since I have legendary start on. Bismark have denounced me, but Korean dude is surprisingly chill about Celtic genocide.

Spoiler :

All and all I think that it would have made sense to build NC in capital, it has tremendous growth potential and ain't bad for science even without jungle.

Any general comments on city placement and stuff? I do know that I should cut on my wonder whoring and I could have probably grown Philly more by setting up couple of food caravans, but I couldn't spare the time since I had to build wonders I think I will replay this map and this time do it right.

One extra question - do spies always steal tech only from capitals? I sent my first spy to defend Philadelphia since it had more stars in espionage screen and produces more , but everyone and their mamas have been stealing tech from my capital.

 

[Mesix]

In your situation, I think the capital would have been better. With 4 wheat and three crab (fish would be better for food), you have tremendous growth potential. The only thing you are missing is a mountain.

I disagree with the rule of thumb to always put it in your capital. If you can get your first 4 cities up in the first 50-60 turns of the game, any of them can be a good location for the NC. You only start getting trade routes up around the time you have finished expansion, and (assuming you have 4 cities) if you send 3 trade routes to your last settled city it can easily catch and surpass your capital in size. You want to have as many as you can of the following conditions: growth potential, a mountain, a river, a coastal location (trade fleets provide more food than caravans), and tiles to improve for science (i.e. jungles for trade posts and/or suitable tiles to plant academies with GS).

I will try to post some pictures for examples later. The only civ which I always put the NC in my capital is Babylon. The early Academy comes before founding my 2nd city. With Babylon, I will sometimes build the NC ASAP (finished by turn 45-60) and expand after it is complete to get the maximum benefit as early as possible. For most other civs, I will explore and expand before building the NC in the most suitable location by about turn 70-100.

 

[DubiousSquirrel]

You only start getting trade routes up around the time you have finished expansion, and (assuming you have 4 cities) if you send 3 trade routes to your last settled city it can easily catch and surpass your capital in size.

I always find myself short of cash in early game. In this map too I had to use my 2-3 cargo ships to bring in some money to stay barely above zero. Where do you get the income to dedicate all your trade routes to food? I spend most of my money to link up my cities.

Regarding this rule of thumb thingy, I now tend to agree with it. It takes insane focus to make NC in non capital viable and you have to sacrifice other stuff for some small to average mid-late game advantage. For all the hassle it takes I think it evens out at the end so not really worth it. Although admittedly it might work out much nicer if one really tries and is not easily distracted like I usually am.

 

[Dushku]

Thank you for asking this question. The information within has unlocked for me another mental lock I had in terms of approach. And as luck would have it, the map I just started looks like the perfect opportunity to make NC city non-capital.

 

[reddishrecue]

I always find myself short of cash in early game. In this map too I had to use my 2-3 cargo ships to bring in some money to stay barely above zero. Where do you get the income to dedicate all your trade routes to food? I spend most of my money to link up my cities.

Regarding this rule of thumb thingy, I now tend to agree with it. It takes insane focus to make NC in non capital viable and you have to sacrifice other stuff for some small to average mid-late game advantage. For all the hassle it takes I think it evens out at the end so not really worth it. Although admittedly it might work out much nicer if one really tries and is not easily distracted like I usually am.

There are a few ways to make gold while youre making internal trade routes:
-Research currency and build markets. Make a merchant specialist so that you can get a great Merchant to do trade mission with city states.
-kill barbarian encampments which give you gold after you kill them.
-Scout the map for more city states. Newly found city states will give you gold if youre nice to city states and arent annoying.
-at least one gold caravan wont harm your internal trade routes.

 

[DubiousSquirrel]

Make a merchant specialist so that you can get a great Merchant to do trade mission with city states.

Isn't great merchant coming out of the same GP pool as great scientists and engineers? Wouldn't it kinda gimp your ability to get first great scientist?

 

[Sclb]

I noticed from your screen shots that it's at turn 70 and both your expos are pop 1? And your NC city isn't even created yet. That fact alone slows down your game by a lot of turn that cancels out benefits of making NC on non capital. You should've been spamming settlers earlier imo. You don't even need to wait for the improved settler production SP. You should also be chopping the forests around you cities unless you really need it later for lumber mills. Also jungle is overrated, usually lots of jungle means no production, and city needs production unless you plan to buy everything.

The other thing I noticed is you started with liberty but only had 4 self founded cities and 1 captured city. It is much better to just go tradition for growth if you're only planning 5. I wouldn't recommend playing peaceful liberty. You should be able to easily clear your entire continent playing liberty BEFORE being discovered by any civ from other continents. You'll end up with fresh diplo situation when the other continent eventually contact you.

 

[Sclb]

There are a few ways to make gold while youre making internal trade routes:
-Research currency and build markets. Make a merchant specialist so that you can get a great Merchant to do trade mission with city states.

Never work Merchant slots early if you're aiming for science. The only time I would even consider it would be Dom V when you want to stagnate the city, when late in SV when it is impossible to create any merchants. Especially when I'm using the freedom ideology to reduce food eaten and increase happiness and science.

-at least one gold caravan wont harm your internal trade routes.

No reason to use gold caravan. Only reason for them is on higher difficulty such as deity to leech science off AI since they start with additional tech and the leech is significant. I sometimes get +10 science from a single trade route.

 

[reddishrecue]

Isn't great merchant coming out of the same GP pool as great scientists and engineers? Wouldn't it kinda gimp your ability to get first great scientist?

That's true, it would, but research pays when you're in the red(gpt loss) so if you're that badly in debt, a GM investment wouldn't hurt particularly if you're paying your gpt difference with science.

Never work Merchant slots early if you're aiming for science. The only time I would even consider it would be Dom V when you want to stagnate the city, when late in SV when it is impossible to create any merchants. Especially when I'm using the freedom ideology to reduce food eaten and increase happiness and science.

Again, the great merchant suggestion is only when you have a gpt loss and you're paying the difference with science.

No reason to use gold caravan. Only reason for them is on higher difficulty such as deity to leech science off AI since they start with additional tech and the leech is significant. I sometimes get +10 science from a single trade route.

Either that or when you are out of happiness so bad that you don't need your cities to grow.

 

[dasaard200]

A while back, I had a game on a huge map, on Prince, standard, 6 AIs, 3 billion years, high sea level; more Wonders and Luxuries than I've ever seen, barbs all over the place, and small continents .

Washington was settled on a hill beside a mountain and river mouth, heavily forested; seemingly a god-tier start . Whales, salt, and gems in the first 2 rings; I had to play THIS one !! SPs were Tradition opener and 3 dips in Liberty, Honor opener, and I was off to the races; pushing settlers along the coast and up the Misterssippi river system; 8 more cities by T100 . All 9 cities connected by T130, forested hills were alive with the sound of axes !!

Fielding an army was a problem until archery, and 6 extra workers to push my way up-river; barbs enough to gag a horse and fill my treasury . By this time, NC was a vanishing early build, done on T203 . Using Caravansary Trade Routes, More Luxuries, B. Unlimited XP, B. Spawn Increase mods, my 4other coastal cities fed Washington, while the 4 river cities fed each other during NC construction; I was sneaking another 4 settlers to grab silver, amber, lapus lazuli, and coffee to settle after finishing NC .

Unfortunatly, all the AIs and CSs were on the other 4 continents; easy game on an empty continent . I wound up with 17 cities on my land mass, when I found my neighbors on T274 . With 20 available TRs, harbors, caravels, and 3 CSs in range; Almaty, Genoa, and Tampico caught all 20 TRs (6, 7, 7) in 3 turns, and my treasury threatened to sink my land .

Yes, an early NC is great; yet we balance building vs. opportunity risks in this game .

 

[Acken]

You're not going to have a great time attempting to build the national college in a city at pop 1 on turn 75.

 

[Sclb]

By this time, NC was a vanishing early build, done on T203 . Using Caravansary Trade Routes, More Luxuries, B. Unlimited XP, B. Spawn Increase mods, my 4other coastal cities fed Washington, while the 4 river cities fed each other during NC construction; I was sneaking another 4 settlers to grab silver, amber, lapus lazuli, and coffee to settle after finishing NC .

I've never seen NC built that late, you might as well not bother as the cost to build it is extremely high at that point if you have that many cities.

 

[dasaard200]

True, it IS expensive with 9 (at the time) cities, I was tech-ing up to ocean crossing, and Washington had the hammers to do it in a slack period . Coastal hammer TRs are good for this . I needed to get NC done before Observatory .

 

[DubiousSquirrel]

Ok so I was reading this thread and couple of others and tried a different approach this time. I took Tradition for the first time, and churned out nothing but settlers (4 of them) after my capital reached pop 4. Settled 4 cities around turn ~60, built libraries first and got NC in capital around turn 80. I stole one worker from city state and rest I got from barbarians (I have raging barbarians on and by looks of it AI cant deal with it). Food caravans where set as soon as possible.

I think I did better this time at least science wise (researching public schools 30 earlier), but not much. Good enough for Prince tho. I'm planing science or diplomatic victory. So far I have only gotten cultural victory.

Spoiler :

 

[DubiousSquirrel]

You should be able to easily clear your entire continent playing liberty BEFORE being discovered by any civ from other continents. You'll end up with fresh diplo situation when the other continent eventually contact you.

But how can you keep up with happiness in this scenario? If I would try and succeed in this I get 3 captured capitals in addition to any cities I have founded myself. That's a lot of even if you capture luxuries.