Is less more?

[Jabie]

This probably heresy, but working on the theory that less is more, what, if anything, do you think should be cut or refined in Fall Further?

 

[Lemminkäinen]

I don't think that FF is that kind of a mod, really. It's all about "more is more" and that's what I love about it.

 

[Iceciro]

Thats extra heretical!

 

[jacomanring]

More is simply not enough!!

 

[WarKirby]

I'm not sure what the rest of the team thinks. Personally, I'm very much in favour of "adding to improve" rather than "adding for it's own sake"

Giving an existing unit cool new spells and abilities, or adding new UUs and mechanics to make a particular civ more unique, fits into the former category for me. Adding entirely new civs, and whole new mechanics like commanders, fits into the latter. That said, I do like commanders, and the culture driven warfare thing looks pretty nice too.

In general, I dislike taking away anything, unless it's only to replace it with something better. The only part of FF I think could do with trimming in that regard, would be Merging the Mazatl/Cualli, as they don't feel unique enough to be seperate civs for me.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I'm not really a big fan of any of the civs that are outside FfH cannon, or the shear number of UUs and promotions they require. I also find the frequent popups for heroes and great people and all those state name changes can get really annoying after a while.

I wouldn't suggest cutting these from FfH, but I really wish Xienwolf (or someone) nalso maintained a mod with all the capabilities (DLL, schema, essential parts of python) of FF but only the normal FF content (tech tree, civs, units, buildings, promotions, spells, features, improvements, events, etc.) That would be an excellent base for modmoders, and would certainly speed MagisterModmod along. (I keep planning on making such a mod myself before I begin my mod again in earnest, but the task seems rather daunting. I probably don't really have time anymore anyway that that school is started again.)

 

[Tarquelne]

I don't think that FF is that kind of a mod, really. It's all about "more is more" and that's what I love about it.

I really admire the periodic pruning of FfH, but I agree. (Not that "more is more" exactly, but at least a general shift toward a more inclusive, if less streamlined/coherent, game.) While there are things in FF I don't really care for I think it's better to either see them improved, tweak them to my tastes, or ignore them. Those three options rather than trying to persuade others that they should be cut. (For one thing it's almost always easier to tweak or ignore.) And there are currently some things that aren't working very well, but presumably they'll be fine in the not terribly distant future.

Given the work on modules, quite a few things might be cut via a nice easy-maintenance module. And Vehem/xienwolf have also been very accommodating about making certain new features Optional.

Hmm... despite the FfH's pruning I treat it the same way, come to think of it. I once had a big tweak mod to "fix" things I didn't care for, but for the most part I ignored features/civs I didn't like. After awhile some were fixed in the FfH code itself, and I stopped caring about most of the rest.

With FF there's just more to tweak and/or ignore. I think that's fine, because there's also more to enjoy. I can see how tastes would differ, though.

All that having been said: I'm not at all opposed to cutting something. I'll be surprised if a consensus emerges on such a feature, though. (For example: I like having both lizard civs.)

 

[odalrick]

I'd drop worker experience in a heartbeat. Even if I turn it off, there are annoying remnants left.

I'm also not fond of the changes to the heal order.

Broader alignments would also go if I was in charge. But at least turning that off, turns it off.

I'd also like to turn off AI-stupidity and micromanagement hell.

 

[Iceciro]

I on the other hand, wouldn't play without Broader Alignments - it lets my Cabalim running order still be evil, as they should be.
I periodically like to muck with the AI and try to get them to play a little smarter.
And worker experience is really neither here nor there for me, I really couldn't care less. 30ish percent of the time it doesn't matter since I'm playing the Scions.

I make a whole lot of modules to change things around, though. And I've still got a laundry list of things I'm working on in the background (I've got two new civs cooking on the burner, actually - one based on the fantasy oriental east, and one based on imperialist Britain.).
I tend to change things rather than remove them though - there's very few things I would actually remove. Example: I'm fixing the Cualli/Matzl problem by making them more distinct, not combining them.

The only things I would love to see removed and never come back are the references to Monty Python and the Three Stooges and Monkey Island - anything that doesn't suit Erebus' world really throws me for a loop when I see it mid game, but I think that's because I tend to lightly RP my way through my MP games, then suddenly DEATH RABBIT EVENT and it's all ruined. But I know the team and most of the playerbase doesn't agree there, so modules away for that one.

 

[Jabie]

As a general rule, I think I'd prefer refinement to removal, (except when a feature clearly doesn't work) but, that said, those refinements can be pretty major.

I tend to agree with combining the Cualli / Mazatl. Bannor / Clan represents a family divided externally, whereas Cualli / Mazatl could represent a family divided internally. Kahd is a nice idea, but a bit of a one-trick pony. I'd shunt him under the Amurites and control his story via events instead. The Dural and Austrin don't feel like civilisations but they could be reworked as the Freemasons and the Explorer Guild, with a slender possibility of producing Professors and Students via an Academy.

Ranged Combat (for Archery units at least) ought to be an optional feature. Master buildings are a micromanagement headache - I'd far rather they worked like Bronze / Iron / Mithril weapons from the base game.

This is all sounding negative, so I ought to balance it out by stating that there are *lot* of good features and ideas I like in Fall Further (Plus).

The Archos are mentioned in the Lore and definitely worthy of a place. Scions are also great, especially if played off against the Mechanos in FF+ because you get a Past vs Future narrative axiom. The Chislev riff off Native American mythology which is a nice touch, as this mythology wasn't explored much in the base game.

The interface improvements (e.g. GPP bar) make the game easier for the player, which is no bad thing. The changes to Great Generals - from what I've seen of them so far - are very neat too.

 

[WarKirby]

The Dural and Austrin don't feel like civilisations but they could be reworked as the Freemasons and the Explorer Guild, with a slender possibility of producing Professors and Students via an Academy.

Wait, what?

The dural and Austrin are the standouts among the FF civs. Both of them have quite a lot of unique art, UUs, UBs, unique mechanics, and interesting playstyles. The Dural have extremely powerful builder potential, both with their early awesome things like Fayre, and lategame stuff like the religious schools. If you work at it, you can get something like

+105%
-20% maintenance
+20% commerce
+20%
+1 and from water tiles
+1 free specialists
+1 Free sage
+3

In EVERY city. And that's just from the religious schools. They also get a free specialist from the College, and they have so many other unique buildings I can't even remember them all, although the Merchant slot on their monument is notable. The Dural are basically an ultimate builder civ. Quite fun if you feel like being peaceful

And yesterday, the austrin got their first "OMG this civ is so overpowered nerf now" rant, which is like a rite of passage into acceptance as a true FFH civ. Their no-terrain-costs recon units open up so much more flexibility of movement, leading to an interesting, and refreshingly different playstyle. They also have no distance maintenance, and the ability to found cities with recon units, allowing you to send an explorer across the sea and found an outpost in a distant land.

so, yeah...

It's pretty fair to say that more work has gone into those two than most. I find the austrin incredibly enjoyable to play.

 

[Iceciro]

Yeah, buddies of mine love the Dural, and I enjoy the Austrin on occasion. They actually make me need to buff svarts more, or at least give them more toys (they actually play out fine as deadly recon, if a bit single-trick-pony.)

And it's sorta a never ending cycle of buff, fix, buff, fix, tiny nerf, buff...

 

[Valkrionn]

Merging the Mazatl/Cualli, as they don't feel unique enough to be seperate civs for me.

Sacrilege!

Personally, I like both philosophies... Generally I like to think I 'add to improve', but with Civs or Leaders I just add.

That said, the leaders will either be an option or a module soon... That way you don't have to have it if you don't want.

 

[WarKirby]

Yeah, buddies of mine love the Dural, and I enjoy the Austrin on occasion. They actually make me need to buff svarts more, or at least give them more toys (they actually play out fine as deadly recon, if a bit single-trick-pony.)

And it's sorta a never ending cycle of buff, fix, buff, fix, tiny nerf, buff...

Just a quick note. In addition to their Sinister trait which gives +1 attack to recon units, the Forest stealth they get from the shrouded woods at Tracking, adds a farther +1 poison strength, more or less to your entire army. Tracking isn't a very expensive tech. Suddenly at that point, you have the svartalfar running around with 6/5 hunters. And don't even start on what they can do once they build a master outfitter, or get CoE going. One more tech, and they have 9/8 rangers, which even outdo iron champions. Their recon line is both stronger AND faster than most civs' melee line. The -20% city attack penalty is about the only thing holding them back.

If you're thinking on changing the svarts, more flavour is always nice, but I'd advise against more power. Don't think they need it

 

[Divvu]

If you're thinking on changing the svarts, more flavour is always nice, but I'd advise against more power. Don't think they need it

QFT! The Svarts don't really need a boost, they already are my favourite civ and I already sorta feel like cheating when playing with them...

That said, many of the things proposed for trimming are the things that made me change from Ffh to FF (and FF plus recently), but I'm a micromanager at heart, I love my worker promos and many such small things...
I do agree that balancing become an issue with such a complex game, but balance is not really a thing I'm interested in...

 

[Lemminkäinen]

I do play FFH as well every once in a while as a change of pace. Both, FF and FFH, work and I like them both but for different reasons.

 

[Iceciro]

The poison combat added into Forest Stealth is actually something that came from Fall Flat and was absorbed into Further.

Trust me - I know how strong they are mechanically, I'd just like more stuff to do other than "build recon line, consume enemy empire, laugh really hard."

 

[2Hydroclopse]

Aimed at the topic of this thread: Yes and No.

At the moment, three things bog down the FF experience: AI limitations, Mid-game processing, Multiplayer limitations(OoS errors). The game would benefit amazingly if these three things were magically fixed. However, this is not to say that these three things should be the last items to ever be worked on for FF. In fact, if these were the last to be worked on, the game would never grow substantially.

To try to confront the topic: Working on less new things, and instead working on the old things, can produce a very stream-line and enjoyable game; but eventually, when the old content becomes awesomely efficient, new content will be begged for.

So: Less[new things] is in fact more[than the original]. So long as the the time saved goes to the old things, and that, indeed, their are some new things being added.

 

[Gedwyn]

Mid-game processing

That would be my biggest complaint.

Not sure exactly what is slowing things down (too many units?) but it does get unbearably slow between turns.

I'd love to see a 'light' FF option where some of the more recent additions were sacrificed in the name of speed...if it turns out that whatever is causing the slowdown can be pin pointed and removed, or made into it's own module.

 

[Iceciro]

I think it's got a lot to do with civs that have too many units, and still feel the need to move them all one square each turn.