Is liberty dead?

[CraigMak]

No, liberty works better on large maps, because of the representation and meritocracy. It's specific area of expertise is when you're jammed between Hiawatha and Montezuma with 2 expansion spots and you need to kill at least one of them fast. Then move on, and kill the other, all the while connecting roads, annexing cities. And keep expanding in this fashion.

On continents, especially, huge continents, liberty's admiral is the difference between meeting all civs around t.130 and meeting them all around t.180, which speeds up world's fair significantly, as you might guess, without ever needing astronomy. And world's fair will fuel your domination campaign with tons of happiness from full commerce. World's fair aside, you might end up in the area with lots of luxurious duplicates and tons of strategics. Admiral can sell all that. Or just rush NC at any early date, or Machu, or scientist, etc, etc.

It's a solid tree for places where tradition wouldn't work as good.

Wait, you're saying that you would use your liberty finisher GP to get a crappy admiral? for real? Even if meeting other civs is that big a deal who's to say the admiral doesn't get nailed by a barb ship 2 turns after it spawns? That sounds very crazy to me.

 

[Browd]

Make sure the Admiral ends every turn on a ocean tile and no problem with barbs. Admiral can actually be a quite useful choice on Continents (particularly if you have made yourself unduly, um, notorious on your home continent and need trading partners who are unaware of your prior indiscretions with your neighbors (or maybe your now-ex-neighbors).

 

[Calouste]

I strongly agree with #2, I agree with, 1, 3, 4, and 7, I disagree with #5 because it already has the garrison bonus and Honor shouldn't be the happiness tree, and #6 I strongly disagree with because you're upsetting a core mechanic of the tall vs. wide gameplay styles.

Re #7, are you guys playing GnK? In BNW, if you found a city later on, you just run an internal trade route to it, job done.

 

[lindsay40k]

If you get Pyramids and you're playing on Quick, you can one turn repair, which means pillaging the same tile every turn. That's some dirty survivability on meatshields that stay below 100% health do draw fire from the siege weapons, or for Landsknecht pillaging, or for XP farming.

I don't get how come you can repair enemy tiles... maybe it can be thought of as representing a support train that works the land in hostile territory to supply the army.

 

[Ryika]

Wait, you're saying that you would use your liberty finisher GP to get a crappy admiral? for real? Even if meeting other civs is that big a deal who's to say the admiral doesn't get nailed by a barb ship 2 turns after it spawns? That sounds very crazy to me.

It's not that crazy actually, a lot of people started doing this a while ago. The Great Admiral can enter ocean tiles, thus explore everything at a time where you'd normally be stuck exploring the seas until you hit the borders of another civilization. He's save on ocean, because barbarians can't enter ocean tiles yet. He can visit other continents really fast, thus you'll have a ton of additional trading partners which equals alot of gpt and additional happiness (and you'll not get stuck with a WLTKD that you can't fulfill). You'll also meet city states who might have easy quests to fulfill. And the world congress will start asap - with you as the host, because you will most likely be the one who met all the other Civs first.

Really a lot of bonuses when you think of it - and what do you lose? An academy or a free wonder, it's a fair trade-off on water-based maps.

 

[SoupJuice]

Seems the best thing from Liberty is a dependable Merchant o' Venice if playing as Enrico - not exactly Liberty is not designed for.

 

[Cromagnus]

Seems the best thing from Liberty is a dependable Merchant o' Venice if playing as Enrico - not exactly Liberty is not designed for.

Two, if you want them. There's no easier way to get 4 cities out as Venice. Sure you lose all the Tradition bonuses, but getting 3 CS puppets by t100 is extremely valuable, just in time to build Great Galleas.

Liberty is highly underrated. Flexibility = survival, especially on Deity.

 

[Moriarte]

Wait, you're saying that you would use your liberty finisher GP to get a crappy admiral? for real? Even if meeting other civs is that big a deal who's to say the admiral doesn't get nailed by a barb ship 2 turns after it spawns? That sounds very crazy to me.

Trireme can protect admiral in shallow waters, but even that isn't needed, normally. End turn in Ocean tiles, as others mention.

Not so crazy when it means finishing commerce 30 turns earlier than otherwise. So. It's sit and do nothing for 30 turns Vs get extra 28 happiness and go kill another civilization.
How else would you fuel your conquests with happiness on deity?

 

[klaskeren]

Liberty is much harder, but a more powerful SP tree in most games.

 

[Cromagnus]

Trireme can protect admiral in shallow waters, but even that isn't needed, normally. End turn in Ocean tiles, as others mention.

Not so crazy when it means finishing commerce 30 turns earlier than otherwise. So. It's sit and do nothing for 30 turns Vs get extra 28 happiness and go kill another civilization.
How else would you fuel your conquests with happiness on deity?

Hmm, interesting Moriarte. I agree with everything you say for the most part, but for sea maps, Exploration holds its own against Commerce, +3 happiness/city and yummy production bonuses. Merchant Navy is nice too. The production bonuses come earlier than the value of Mercantilism. (Presumably you're not benefiting from this until Public Schools or Navigation, whereas +3 production is immediately useful)

Also, on Continents there's a high value in delaying meeting the other continent. Not that the GA isn't a great trick. But If I finish Liberty on t90, I'd rather plant a GS and get Astronomy earlier, because I'm not ready to meet the other continent until I finish killing everyone on mine.

Caravels are better explorers anyway. They come later, but their movement rate makes up for it IMHO, especially with Exploration. (5 vs GA's 3, + 50% chance of GLH's +1 being on your starting continent)

Of course, this totally depends on your long-term goals. If you're planning to win with Frigates, World's Fair is moot. And if you *fail* to clear your continent with XBows, then the Admiral is a solid play. But, you won't know that until it's too late.

Plus, usually the AI sends out caravels. If you're the only one left on your continent, WC tends to be founded as soon as the AI finds your continent. So, you can still get WC by t130 usually, regardless. Hmm. I'm not sold on the idea. But getting those trading partners earlier (like t100-t110) *would* be pretty nice. I would think it would be more practical for SV, where they aren't going to hate your for your conquest if you meet them that early. Neat trick, regardless.

 

[Moriarte]

I feel exploration is better suited for archipelago - type of maps. How many coastal cities will we have on continents map? That, and the fact that i was initially responding to Callonia's doubt about liberty's usefulness on larger maps. I think wagon trains (and most other policies in commerce) are well fit for domination, especially, considering the fact that you will have to pay for the roads on both yours and neighboring continents. I remember going for both full commerce and 2 in exploration (plus ideologies) for the happiness in my huge Ottoman game, due to abundance of culture from W's Fair, which was very helpful in terms of keeping the ball rolling.

I agree with your scenario for standard sized map, where you want to clear your continent before meeting anyone else. The value of that move diminishes with bigger map sizes, as you can't possibly clear the continent before turn 200, hence meeting others early is preferable, even though distant neighbors will be hating you too, eventually.

 

[Cromagnus]

I feel exploration is better suited for archipelago - type of maps. How many coastal cities will we have on continents map? That, and the fact that i was initially responding to Callonia's doubt about liberty's usefulness on larger maps. I think wagon trains (and most other policies in commerce) are well fit for domination, especially, considering the fact that you will have to pay for the roads on both yours and neighboring continents. I remember going for both full commerce and 2 in exploration (plus ideologies) for the happiness in my huge Ottoman game, due to abundance of culture from W's Fair, which was very helpful in terms of keeping the ball rolling.

I agree with your scenario for standard sized map, where you want to clear your continent before meeting anyone else. The value of that move diminishes with bigger map sizes, as you can't possibly clear the continent before turn 200, hence meeting others early is preferable, even though distant neighbors will be hating you too, eventually.

Fair point. Larger maps definitely change things. Although, I will say one way that Exploration is useful for Continents Domination is the free happiness you usually get out of puppets. They almost always have lighthouse and/or harbor after capture. I so rarely find the need to capture more than one or two inland capitals that roads seem moot, but on larger continents maps that wouldn't be true. Is Large Continents two bigger continents or 3 normal continents? What about Huge? I've only played Huge Archipelago and Huge Tiny Islands if I recall.

 

[Moriarte]

Fair point. Larger maps definitely change things. Although, I will say one way that Exploration is useful for Continents Domination is the free happiness you usually get out of puppets. They almost always have lighthouse and/or harbor after capture. I so rarely find the need to capture more than one or two inland capitals that roads seem moot, but on larger continents maps that wouldn't be true. Is Large Continents two bigger continents or 3 normal continents? What about Huge? I've only played Huge Archipelago and Huge Tiny Islands if I recall.

Both huge and large can have two or three continents. Sometimes up to 5. That's what i get with standard sea level anyway. Having 20+ cities on each one of 5 landmasses isn't out of ordinary. Some capitals are coastal, some are deep inside the continent.

Try it. You're more than fit for it and it's a good challenge. Large is not much different from standard, tbh. Huge is where things start to become ridiculous.

 

[Cromagnus]

Ok, you've intrigued me. After I finish up my current games, I'll give Huge Deity Continents Domination a try! Perhaps a Deity challenge is in order? HoF or a shared start point?

 

[Moriarte]

HOF then, if you don't mind. How about Indonesia? I personally never finished a single game with them. Interested in mystic blades?

 

[Cromagnus]

I'm trying to finish VVV so how about a civ neither of us have submitted to HOF with?

According to the HOF, not counting the games I've already submitted this update, our shared list would be:

Rome
Ethiopia
Hiawatha
Austria
France
Japan
Inca
Siam
America
China
Holland

Of those, I would find Rome, Holland, America and Japan the most interesting for this kind of map. Maybe someone else can chime in.

EDIT: Well, interesting in this case means: "I've never gotten the chance to use their UUs/UAs in a case where they would really come into play"... some might find it more *interesting* to use a civ with less obvious advantages.

 

[Moriarte]

See, i am doing the same, as you might have probably guessed, but i neglected to check your list. I like all 4. You are the one proposing, so, i think you have the privilege to choose and start a thread in hof section, not to steal this one any longer. I'm up for it, whatever your choice.