Is Tech Stirrups placed correctly in the Middle Ages?

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

Is Tech Stirrups placed correctly in the Middle Ages?
In this game. Stirrups is Middle Age tech and enables knights.
I don't think so. Even in Civilopedia suggested that it originated in the Classical Era somewhere in Asia (Likely Jin era China founded by Sima Yan (His family name 'Sima' is written with '司馬' means 'one who controls horses') , mmmmmm but how horsemen and Cataphracts of the Sanguo Era, Persia, and Old Roma fight with saddles but no stirrups as mounting equipment?).

Along with writing, gunpowder and pre-sliced bread, the stirrup is considered one of the basic inventions needed to spread civilization ... at least by some historians. Like all great innovations, it seems such a simple idea. Humans had domesticated the horse around 4500 BC, but where to put one's feet and how to stay on when the horse began running? The saddle, invented around 800 BC, took care of the latter problem. But adding two pieces of leather with a loop (later made of metal) on the end hanging down didn't come about until around a half-millennia later – no one is quite sure when or where, although it was somewhere in east Asia as the Chinese Jin dynasty was using it by 322 BC.

The idea of stirrups spread quickly, thanks to those barbarian horsemen of Central Asia who saw the advantages. Images from ancient India c. 200 BC show bare-footed riders using big-toed stirrups. A Kushan engraving made a century later shows a mounted rider with platform stirrups. Digging up Korean tumuli from the 5th Century AD yield stirrups, such as those found at Pokchong-dong and Pan-gyeje; and by the Nara period similar ones were in use in Japan. Meanwhile, European riders had to make do without stirrups until the 8th Century, when the Avars came storming out of Eurasia.

The Arabs soon picked up on the benefits, but more importantly so too did the Franks. Slamming into something with a ten-foot pole while astride a big horse was only feasible with stirrups. Especially if encased in heavy armor; indeed, medieval knights would have been hard pressed even to get mounted without stirrups. And thus was born – according to some – feudalism, notions of chivalry and other “advances” that would dominate Europe for the next several centuries.

https://civilization.fandom.com/wiki/Stirrups_(Civ6)

In my mod I moved Stirrups into late Classical Era and added Plate Armor Tech in place.

 

[notNamed]

...mmmmmm but how horsemen and Cataphracts of the Sanguo Era, Persia, and Old Roma fight with saddles but no stirrups as mounting equipment?).

Very carefully.
None of these armies had access to stirrups. Han cavalry, Roman cavalry, Sassanid cataphracts, all of these had to do with more elaborate and limiting saddles and riding techniques.
Oh, and Sima's family name is much older than Jin dynasty and has nothing to do with stirrups. Just think of Sima Tan and Sima Qian, the authors of Records of the Grand Historian (first-ever Chinese history book from the early Han dynasty).

If you want to poke holes at the tech tree, you can easily do so elsewhere. Like 'military tactics'
along with its description straight up saying that these things did not exist in any real capacity until the middle ages. Gunpowder, printing or siege tactics are also renaissance techs, though at least those don't claim that in their descriptions.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

^ So to say that Firaxis is right about Stirrups being in middle ages and not Classical Era? What did Romans, Sassanid and Imperial Han saddles looks like?
With this. is it acceptable to have Horseback Riding enables Cataphracts if it is gonna be an intermediate heavycav units between chariots and knights?
Personally I don't think Medieval Knights and Classical Era Cataphracts are one and same nor I think Horsemen and Cataphracts are same unit even if King Arthur's Knights were actually more of Cataphracts and less of Knights.

 

[notNamed]

^ So to say that Firaxis is right about Stirrups being in middle ages and not Classical Era? What did Romans, Sassanid and Imperial Han saddles looks like?

More or less, yeah.
Romans and Sassanids had horns to wedge your legs between and hold you in.
This allows you to be much more stable in the saddle, BUT think of the shooting backwards that Hunnic archers did which Romans wrote about as something extraordinary. And here's why... you can't do that if the saddle holds you in place.

Spoiler :

Han had a similar strategy, they just added fairly large planks in the back and front of the saddle. Not focusing on wedging your legs, but keeping your torso from sliding forward/back.

Spoiler :

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

More or less, yeah.
Romans and Sassanids had horns to wedge your legs between and hold you in.
This allows you to be much more stable in the saddle, BUT think of the shooting backwards that Hunnic archers did which Romans wrote about as something extraordinary. And here's why... you can't do that if the saddle holds you in place.

Spoiler :

Han had a similar strategy, they just added fairly large planks in the back and front of the saddle. Not focusing on wedging your legs, but keeping your torso from sliding forward/back.

Spoiler :

The steppe horse archers had wood-framed cloth/leather-covered saddles as far back as 500 BCE (found in Pazyryk graves) which gave both a solid seat, protected the horse's spine, and allowed the flexibility for the rider to shoot in most directions (exception: unless you have a left-handed bow and draw, shooting to the right is near-impossible!)

The 'Roman' 4-horned saddle first appears in illustrations in about 100 BCE, about a century after the first depictions I know of of the Han variety, but there is also evidence that the Roman saddle was copied from an earlier Gaulic version.

Stirrup development is a lot more complicated. Neither Classical Greeks, nor Romans, nor anybody else had stirrups, but a 'toe-loop' with limited stirrup-like effect shows up in India about 200 BCE. Three hundred years later, a more solid stirrup is depicted in Central Asia among the Kushans, and in 302 CE is the first picture of a definite metal stirrup in Jin Dynasty China.
In 463 CE comes the first mention of the Avars by a Roman writer, a tribe arriving from the Don-Volga steppes with iron stirrups, who 'introduced' the stirrup to Europe. By 600 CE metal stirrups are showing up in graves all over eastern Europe, so we can assume that, at least among the general horse-riding population, they have become common.

Note, therefore, that the metal stirrup is in fact a Classical Tech, only its spread all the way into western Europe being a very early Medieval phenomenon.

More important, though, is that the stirrup is utterly unimportant to the making of an armored lance-armed mounted Knight. Sarmatians were charging with lances on armored horses with head to tow scale or lamellar armor in 100 CE, long before stirrups, and the Romans had to come up with a rearmed legion (including 'lanciarii' - spear or pikemen) to withstand their shock charge. It is the supportive saddle that makes the couched lance both possible and deadly, not the stirrup.
Nor is the stirrup necessary to get onto the horse. Fully armored knights were expected to be able to vault into the saddle without using stirrups - one nobleman bragged about still being able to do it when he was in his 50s, and he was wearing much heavier articulated plate armor of the 14th century, not the earlier and more common link mail hauberk and helm.

The Medieval European Knight, in fact, was a product of Social/Political developments, not weapons, horse furniture or armor. The Knight of 1100 CE (the first certain evidence we have of Western European Knights with couched lances) was wearing link mail armor that was a 1500 year old technology, sitting in a treed saddle that was 1200 year old technology, wielding a long straight sword that was 1000 year old technology. What was new was a socio-political system in which he was granted enough land to maintain him, his horse and his weaponry so that he could spend all his time training to use horse, lance, and sword to the best advantage. That was what made him and his mounted charge deadly.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

^ So to say. Knights should be enabled with Civics (Feudalism) and not Tech (Stirrups or anything else like what i did in my mod, 'Plate Armor Tech')?

(And name of replacement promotions if Reactive Armor is re assigned to 'Tank Class' which i'm developing it in my mod rightnow please? Pemium Armor (or something along the line) or Dismounted Combat or what else?)

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

^ So to say. Knights should be enabled with Civics (Feudalism) and not Tech (Stirrups or anything else like what i did in my mod, 'Plate Armor Tech')?

(And name of replacement promotions if Reactive Armor is re assigned to 'Tank Class' which i'm developing it in my mod rightnow please? Pemium Armor (or something along the line) or Dismounted Combat or what else?)

Specifically for the Medieval Era European Knight, he goes through the following 'Upgrades'
Original: about 1100 CE the Norman/French/German Knight wore link mail armor, carried a wooden 'kite' shaped shield, long sword and lance, rode an unarmored horse.
Between 1150 and 1200 CE he started adding a Great Helm - a solid iron helmet protecting his entire head against anything but a direct hit by a catapult
From 1200 to 1300 CE the link mail armor was supplemented by plate armor: first a breast and back plate over the upper torso, then shoulder, arm, and leg pieces.
After 1300 CE 'barding' or armoring for the horse appears, and the individual plates attached to the link mail are fastened to each other as Articulated Plate Armor. This is the best of the amor protection, including extra pieces covering joints at knees and elbows, armored foot coverings and armored gloves or mittens. It is so good that when NASA was first designing space suits for astronauts they consulted the armorers at the Tower of London, who maintained the tools and knowledge to manufacture and repaire plate armor.
Also, as the armor became steel plate, the knights started adding extra weapons to deal with plate armor, like battle axes, maces, morning stars and big two-handed swords: weapons that could crush their way through the plate if they couldn't actually penetrate it.

So, potentially, in game terms, you could have one or more of the following 'Promotions' or Technical/Equipment Upgrades:

Barding or Great Helm - extra strength against ranged attacks
Articulated Plate - extra strength against heavy cavalry or anti-cav
Great Weapons - extra strength aainst other Heavy Cavalry

 

[Cpt Chaos]

Speaking of holes in the tech tree, what about steel? This was a medieval era tech in Civ V that unlocked longswordmen. Now it is modern era...

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

Speaking of holes in the tech tree, what about steel? This was a medieval era tech in Civ V that unlocked longswordmen. Now it is modern era...

I my mod (WIP version not completed. still much works to be done includes testings) i've moved it to Late Industrial era, enables Armored Cruiser, while Artillery is unlocked with either Chems or Replaceable parts.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Speaking of holes in the tech tree, what about steel? This was a medieval era tech in Civ V that unlocked longswordmen. Now it is modern era...

"Steel" is at least as complicated as Stirrups, because it comes in several different varieties and applications.

The earliest Steel is, in fact, Classical:
1. In the 4th century CE in south India they developed crucible high-carbon steel known as "Wootz" steel (wootz probably a corruption of ukku - 'to melt' or uchcha - 'superior'), which was produced by a combination of unique circumstances: they had iron ore which included traces of Vanadium making it harder when smelted, and they fired their crucibles with charcoal and bamboo which added carbon to the iron and the furnace was driven by monsoon winds producing a Blast Furnace effect. Ingots of Wootz steel were exported to the Middle East and China, and Alexander the Great was given a gift of a 20 kg ingot which was made into a steel breastplate, making him the first historical personage known to wear steel armor. Wootz iron may have contributed to the high quality and reputation of 'Damascus' blades several centuries later.
2. In the first century CE there is evidence of steel making in Tanzania, Africa by pre-heating and reheating iron with carbon (wood) to produce high-carbon steel or near steel. This needs more research, because there is also evidence that this culture went straight to Iron Working without ever working copper or bronze.
3. in the second century CE Celts in now-Roman Gaul invented pattern welding, in which heated iron was hammered flat, folded over and hammered flat again. This created both a decorative pattern on the blades produced and also produced steel or near-steel blades.
NOTE: contrary to some scholars, China was not an early steel producer. They did have very high heat furnaces that produced cast iron as early as 500 BCE, and by 300 BCE iron was the preferred metal for everything from weapons to plowshares, but the cast iron was much too brittle for decent blades, and there is no evidence that they produced steel except accidentally while making wrought iron - which happened everywhere that people worked wrought iron.

In the early Middle Ages, blacksmiths all over Europe using bellows-fed 'blast' furnaces and repeated hammering produced steel blades and metal in small (maximum 5 - 25 kg at a time) quantities - enough for swords, axes, helmets, link mail, so that Medieval weaponry was in general much better than anything available to ordinary warriors in Classical Era. By 1000 CE watermill-driven hammers were being used to hammer out larger ingots of steel, and within the next two centuries this was applied to steel plate armor and by 1370 CE to make steel 'springs' for crossbows, the ultimate Medieval armor-piercing weapon.

In 1740 CE Benjamin Huntsman in England combined coke-fired furnaces and clay crucibles to produce steel from carbon-charged iron by the hundreds of pounds at a time. This was the beginning of the use of steel in Industrial Quantities.
In 1839 Nasmyth invented a steam-driven hammer for precision forging of large steel objects. By no coincidence in the next few years large steam engines for ships, railroads and factories all started to become common.

In 1856 the Bessemer process, followed a few years later by the Open Hearth process, made it possible to produce steel in lots of dozens, then hundreds of tons at a time. Also by no coincidence, steel-hulled warships, steel instead of wrought iron armor plate, steel railroad rails, steel-framed 'skyscrapers', and steel wire suspension bridges followed in the next 25 years.

So, steel is a specialized Tech in Classical Era, a more general Tech in Medieval Era, but available in Industrial Quantities for railroads, steam engines, 'ironclads' and such only in the mid-to-late Industrial Era.

I suggest that there should be one deposit of Wootz Iron on the map from which you can produce iron-requiring units with one automatic promotion, representing the only consistent 'steel' available before the Medieval Era. The effects of steel on originally-iron weapons and armor should be built into the factors of Medieval Units, as effectively they are now.
ALL Resources should be divided into categories of Normal and Industrial Quantities, the latter would require special Technologies (Bessemer, Open Hearth, Deep Mines or Open Pit mechanized mining, mechanized farming) to produc e, but would be required for the Industrial Era units and construction. Building a single steel bridge by indivifually hammered out rivits and girders from a village blacksmith just ain't going to happen!

 

[orasis]

Civ... is not totally historic.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Civ... is not totally historic.

Neither is History as written by 99.9% of the historians.

But, in a purported 4X Historical Game, we can at least try to come close, especially when IMHO it would make a better game, with more variety of play available to the gamer.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

"Steel" is at least as complicated as Stirrups, because it comes in several different varieties and applications.



In 1740 CE Benjamin Huntsman in England combined coke-fired furnaces and clay crucibles to produce steel from carbon-charged iron by the hundreds of pounds at a time. This was the beginning of the use of steel in Industrial Quantities.
In 1839 Nasmyth invented a steam-driven hammer for precision forging of large steel objects. By no coincidence in the next few years large steam engines for ships, railroads and factories all started to become common.

In 1856 the Bessemer process, followed a few years later by the Open Hearth process, made it possible to produce steel in lots of dozens, then hundreds of tons at a time. Also by no coincidence, steel-hulled warships, steel instead of wrought iron armor plate, steel railroad rails, steel-framed 'skyscrapers', and steel wire suspension bridges followed in the next 25 years.

So, steel is a specialized Tech in Classical Era, a more general Tech in Medieval Era, but available in Industrial Quantities for railroads, steam engines, 'ironclads' and such only in the mid-to-late Industrial Era.

I suggest that there should be one deposit of Wootz Iron on the map from which you can produce iron-requiring units with one automatic promotion, representing the only consistent 'steel' available before the Medieval Era. The effects of steel on originally-iron weapons and armor should be built into the factors of Medieval Units, as effectively they are now.
ALL Resources should be divided into categories of Normal and Industrial Quantities, the latter would require special Technologies (Bessemer, Open Hearth, Deep Mines or Open Pit mechanized mining, mechanized farming) to produc e, but would be required for the Industrial Era units and construction. Building a single steel bridge by indivifually hammered out rivits and girders from a village blacksmith just ain't going to happen!

1. Even with Ben Huntsman iron processor unit things, was it actually a facility to mass produce Early Industrial Wrought Irons or is it steel? Is it permits iron gun carriages seen promimently in American Civil War a century later?

^ Are these Iron Emplacements wrought iron or bessemer steel? I don't know if there's any Bessemer Steel Mill erected in the US of A before American Civil War broke out?

^ And do you think my adapations of Siege Rifle is correct?
2. Rifled Artillery production methods.
Armstrong cited that he used superior 'wrought irons' to build his rifled guns, pretty much like how bombards were made but not much like the norms of aritllery productions which involves metal castings and borings. How? what are tools he used Nasmyth's steam hammers?
2. However, Americans used the more familiar iron castings and borings. So when did the wrought iron bands strappings first applied around the gun firing chamber? how many iron bands and layers of straps American ironworks use when making rifled cannonry? Didn't they have access to steam hammers? And when strapping iron bands, did they also red heating gun barrels in addition to the band? or forge weld the iron bands into the gunbarrel too?
3. About Naval Ranged choices for barbarians since Industrial Era. Do you think is it acceptable for them to have ironclads? (think of Confederate solutions to the Union Blockade) By modern era I don't think they can have BBs of any kind. what should be their ranged warships in place of Dreadnoughts and BBs like Iowa and Yamato?

4. Return to the original topic. Do you think .. if I move Stirrups into Late Classical. Should it be a tech to enable Cataphracts? (And do you like this name for an intermediate heavycav unit between heavy chariots and knights? if not what's the name you will choose for it?)

 

[kaspergm]

Specifically for the Medieval Era European Knight, he goes through the following 'Upgrades'
Original: about 1100 CE the Norman/French/German Knight wore link mail armor, carried a wooden 'kite' shaped shield, long sword and lance, rode an unarmored horse.
Between 1150 and 1200 CE he started adding a Great Helm - a solid iron helmet protecting his entire head against anything but a direct hit by a catapult
From 1200 to 1300 CE the link mail armor was supplemented by plate armor: first a breast and back plate over the upper torso, then shoulder, arm, and leg pieces.
After 1300 CE 'barding' or armoring for the horse appears, and the individual plates attached to the link mail are fastened to each other as Articulated Plate Armor. This is the best of the amor protection, including extra pieces covering joints at knees and elbows, armored foot coverings and armored gloves or mittens. It is so good that when NASA was first designing space suits for astronauts they consulted the armorers at the Tower of London, who maintained the tools and knowledge to manufacture and repaire plate armor.
Also, as the armor became steel plate, the knights started adding extra weapons to deal with plate armor, like battle axes, maces, morning stars and big two-handed swords: weapons that could crush their way through the plate if they couldn't actually penetrate it.

So, potentially, in game terms, you could have one or more of the following 'Promotions' or Technical/Equipment Upgrades:

Barding or Great Helm - extra strength against ranged attacks
Articulated Plate - extra strength against heavy cavalry or anti-cav
Great Weapons - extra strength aainst other Heavy Cavalry

So basically what you are suggesting is an upgrade system for normal units similar to what we have for the Giant Death Robot? Well it’s an interesting thought. If it comes along with buying/producing equipment and various possible resource variants (I.e. equip your melee units with standard bronze swords or give them iron swords if you have that resource for an attack bonus), I’m certainly all for it rather than the artificial “warrior into swordsman into rifleman” upgrade we have now (not to mention the more hilarious knight into tank).

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

^ On different posts @Boris Gudenuf NEVER agrees with Firaxis class and promotion systems implemented in Civ6. (Particularly when firearms became a game changer in 15th Century ended distinctions between Melee and Anticavalry, and with repeating weapons (Particularly repeating rifles and MGs) ended distinctions between Light and Heavy cavalry. Nor he agrees with unit rosters in modern era - inf era. (MGs are basic regimental weapons for both Infs and Cavs since the late 19th Century, for example). He's more agreeeed with Commander The Great War unit upgrade systems where there are major upgrades (unit graphics changed entirely), and minor upgrades (no graphics changed but with buffs, like MGs added defense factor).

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

^ On different posts @Boris Gudenuf NEVER agrees with Firaxis class and promotion systems implemented in Civ6. (Particularly when firearms became a game changer in 15th Century ended distinctions between Melee and Anticavalry, and with repeating weapons (Particularly repeating rifles and MGs) ended distinctions between Light and Heavy cavalry. Nor he agrees with unit rosters in modern era - inf era. (MGs are basic regimental weapons for both Infs and Cavs since the late 19th Century, for example). He's more agreeeed with Commander The Great War unit upgrade systems where there are major upgrades (unit graphics changed entirely), and minor upgrades (no graphics changed but with buffs, like MGs added defense factor).

What I said . . .

But, in answer to @kaspergm specifically, yes, when the GDR came out I was excited that the 'Technical Upgrades" mechanism for that unit could be extended to all units to replace many of the bogus 'promotions' that are actually changes in technology (Reactive Armor, Drop Tanks, Zweihander, Folding Wings, etc). Ideally (like, maybe by Civ XLVIII) I'd like to see Technical Upgrades to allow incremental improvement of units to fill in the Era Gaps while Promotions represent 'soft' factors like Morale and Training.

 

[Victoria]

the furnace was driven by monsoon winds

Awesome, thank you for cheering up my day.

 

[GIO888]

A UK University recently recreated a 2nd Century roman saddle - and were amazed at how pre-stirrup ancient saddles held the rider in. Stirrups came to Europe via the Saracens, it is supposed, post 9th century, more widely over the next century via the First Crusade. Sort of Knighty, really.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

What I said . . .

But, in answer to @kaspergm specifically, yes, when the GDR came out I was excited that the 'Technical Upgrades" mechanism for that unit could be extended to all units to replace many of the bogus 'promotions' that are actually changes in technology (Reactive Armor, Drop Tanks, Zweihander, Folding Wings, etc). Ideally (like, maybe by Civ XLVIII) I'd like to see Technical Upgrades to allow incremental improvement of units to fill in the Era Gaps while Promotions represent 'soft' factors like Morale and Training.

Yes. promotions should reflex actual combat skills and moves rather than wargears.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

"Steel" is at least as complicated as Stirrups, because it comes in several different varieties and applications.

The earliest Steel is, in fact, Classical:
1. In the 4th century CE in south India they developed crucible high-carbon steel known as "Wootz" steel (wootz probably a corruption of ukku - 'to melt' or uchcha - 'superior'), which was produced by a combination of unique circumstances: they had iron ore which included traces of Vanadium making it harder when smelted, and they fired their crucibles with charcoal and bamboo which added carbon to the iron and the furnace was driven by monsoon winds producing a Blast Furnace effect. Ingots of Wootz steel were exported to the Middle East and China, and Alexander the Great was given a gift of a 20 kg ingot which was made into a steel breastplate, making him the first historical personage known to wear steel armor. Wootz iron may have contributed to the high quality and reputation of 'Damascus' blades several centuries later.
2. In the first century CE there is evidence of steel making in Tanzania, Africa by pre-heating and reheating iron with carbon (wood) to produce high-carbon steel or near steel. This needs more research, because there is also evidence that this culture went straight to Iron Working without ever working copper or bronze.
3. in the second century CE Celts in now-Roman Gaul invented pattern welding, in which heated iron was hammered flat, folded over and hammered flat again. This created both a decorative pattern on the blades produced and also produced steel or near-steel blades.
NOTE: contrary to some scholars, China was not an early steel producer. They did have very high heat furnaces that produced cast iron as early as 500 BCE, and by 300 BCE iron was the preferred metal for everything from weapons to plowshares, but the cast iron was much too brittle for decent blades, and there is no evidence that they produced steel except accidentally while making wrought iron - which happened everywhere that people worked wrought iron.

In the early Middle Ages, blacksmiths all over Europe using bellows-fed 'blast' furnaces and repeated hammering produced steel blades and metal in small (maximum 5 - 25 kg at a time) quantities - enough for swords, axes, helmets, link mail, so that Medieval weaponry was in general much better than anything available to ordinary warriors in Classical Era. By 1000 CE watermill-driven hammers were being used to hammer out larger ingots of steel, and within the next two centuries this was applied to steel plate armor and by 1370 CE to make steel 'springs' for crossbows, the ultimate Medieval armor-piercing weapon.

In 1740 CE Benjamin Huntsman in England combined coke-fired furnaces and clay crucibles to produce steel from carbon-charged iron by the hundreds of pounds at a time. This was the beginning of the use of steel in Industrial Quantities.
In 1839 Nasmyth invented a steam-driven hammer for precision forging of large steel objects. By no coincidence in the next few years large steam engines for ships, railroads and factories all started to become common.

In 1856 the Bessemer process, followed a few years later by the Open Hearth process, made it possible to produce steel in lots of dozens, then hundreds of tons at a time. Also by no coincidence, steel-hulled warships, steel instead of wrought iron armor plate, steel railroad rails, steel-framed 'skyscrapers', and steel wire suspension bridges followed in the next 25 years.

So, steel is a specialized Tech in Classical Era, a more general Tech in Medieval Era, but available in Industrial Quantities for railroads, steam engines, 'ironclads' and such only in the mid-to-late Industrial Era.

I suggest that there should be one deposit of Wootz Iron on the map from which you can produce iron-requiring units with one automatic promotion, representing the only consistent 'steel' available before the Medieval Era. The effects of steel on originally-iron weapons and armor should be built into the factors of Medieval Units, as effectively they are now.
ALL Resources should be divided into categories of Normal and Industrial Quantities, the latter would require special Technologies (Bessemer, Open Hearth, Deep Mines or Open Pit mechanized mining, mechanized farming) to produc e, but would be required for the Industrial Era units and construction. Building a single steel bridge by indivifually hammered out rivits and girders from a village blacksmith just ain't going to happen!

Fun thread.

So, as they say, as with most technology it's an evolution and not a revolution. Yet in civ there are definite "techs" to be achieved as milestones in the game. It's binary where in real life most things arent. Either you "know" steel (just as an example) or you don't. The tech has to go somewhere.

Civ is a "big picture" sort of game. I'm not sure most people would want dozens of microtechnologies for every avenue of advancement. I mean, it would be interesting, but that might be better for a game that focuses on one specific era of history.