It's OK to reload when...

[jbevermore]

Rarely =/= never. Is it ok to lose instantly on spawn but not know about it for over an hour? That's a *terrible* gameplay design choice. As far as I can tell, civ V got away from it somewhat compared to IV.

The most engaging starts are those sufficiently novel to force one into varying actual builds or strategy. Junk starts that have the same strategic conclusions as good ones are worthless in a gameplay sense.

Those are always the most interesting. My current game I almost dropped because it was more or less a straight tundra map with some forests. But I stuck it out long enough to explore, and finally realized that EVERYONE was like this, not just my crappy little corner of the world. It's been a heck of a lot of fun trying to squeeze as much production and food out of such a crappy map as I can.

Great Engineers and Merchants, for example, are critically important. Landed Elite is vital. Non-ideal maps really force you into out of the box thinking.

 

[Louis XXIV]

Rarely =/= never. Is it ok to lose instantly on spawn but not know about it for over an hour? That's a *terrible* gameplay design choice. As far as I can tell, civ V got away from it somewhat compared to IV.

I don't believe in an impossible to win start. One of my favorite civ games ever was a Civ3 game where I started in what looked essentially like Panama. It was about three tiles north to south and very wide. Oh and jungle about 20 tiles in each direction with nothing else. This was back when corruption was king, so building in a ring was paramount (which the map prevented). Oh, and I was playing as the Iroquois, so the jungle made my unique unit useless (also made my scout kinda useless, since I think they were just a vanilla 2 moves). It took a lot of hard work, but I won that game. It's certainly possible.

 

[cccv]

I used to reload very often:
- when I lost a unit,
- when AI build a wonder before me,
- .. I forgot to do something

But after what some of You said, I fell like I have almost sinned

Maybe something like CiV 10 (or any other number) commandments could be defined.

ok, here are the commandments:

1--Realize you are playing a game
2--Realize that games are supposed to be fun
3--Play in whatever way makes is the most fun for you
4--Realize that this does not make you a "sinner" and politely ignore anyone who tells you otherwise.

ok... more like the Four Noble Truths than the 10 Commandments >.>

 

[bryanw1995]

I typically will only reload if I go against my original plan by accidentally clicking the wrong button, say by hitting the "raze" instead of "puppet" button on a captured city or something like that.

 

[troytheface]

Fact- the unconscious does not make mistakes

the evidence is clear

and i want an apology from the mod that posted a warning for trolling

you are incorrect

i suggest the sentence "Posting in a manner intended to provoke a negative reaction is considered trolling. "

is posting in a manner intended to provoke a negative reaction

Moderator Action: PDMA is not allowed. You're welcome to contest an action with a moderator via PM, not in public.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[ShuShu62]

and i want an apology from the mod

--- uh, good luck with that, no matter how many times you try reloading this thread....

It is clear reloading is a sin in multiplayer efforts, but not possible.

Most high score competitions prohibit it, so it is cheating unless expressly permitted.

Otherwise it is about personal enjoyment.

Some respected posts resulted directly from making observations after playing the same position through several alternative iterations, so reloading is not inherently evil. (Same Seed starting option actually encourages that behavior).

I consider it a personal weakness that I don't reload my strategic mistakes to find out where I went wrong, but heck, that's a personal enjoyment choice too.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I don't believe in an impossible to win start.

I don't believe in the existence of electricity.

Wait.

There are impossible to win starts, or at least there were in civ IV. I haven't encountered one I could realistically verify to be un-winnable (without tremendous luck) in a civ V game. Like combat not being a RNG screw-fest in general, if this holds over time it's one of the better design decisions implemented in civ V.

However, civ IV gave you crap like "you are blocked by peaks and settled in place so now you are trapped with 1 non-coastal city forever" and "Hi, you spawn next to sitting bull. You get 3 cities. He gets 15+. Have fun losing". Embarkation gets around the former, and the fact that you can wipe civs out with dedicated early rush tactics (even without strategic resources) on high difficulties cuts into the chances of the latter for civ V. I'm saying that unwinnable starts SHOULDN'T happen, not that they actually do in V. You can still get screwed by meeting 40 city alex on the other continent, but no starting position seems 100% unwinnable in V, at least not yet.

It is clear reloading is a sin in multiplayer efforts, but not possible.

The problem is when you get UI screwed into a loss that had NOTHING to do with your playing ability. Well, that would be a problem, if civ V had working multiplayer. It doesn't, and will not until they a) stop double moving b) allow you to do things after ending turn c) stop the "choose production bug" d) stop the game from dropping players when you have more than a few.

Most other competitive formats in their present form in civ V are a joke also, unless I'm missing one. I'd love to see a viable competitive format in civ V. Any suggestions?

 

[Louis XXIV]

However, civ IV gave you crap like "you are blocked by peaks and settled in place so now you are trapped with 1 non-coastal city forever" and "Hi, you spawn next to sitting bull. You get 3 cities. He gets 15+. Have fun losing". Embarkation gets around the former, and the fact that you can wipe civs out with dedicated early rush tactics (even without strategic resources) on high difficulties cuts into the chances of the latter for civ V. I'm saying that unwinnable starts SHOULDN'T happen, not that they actually do in V. You can still get screwed by meeting 40 city alex on the other continent, but no starting position seems 100% unwinnable in V, at least not yet.

With Maritime cities, that helps reduce some difficulty with terrain. You can also use your small size to focus on culture instead and your isolated position to protect you from invasion.

The powerful enemy is the only situation that comes closest, but that certainly isn't a situation that you won't find out about for 100 turns. They'll likely rush you early. Even then, Archer and Bronze Working go a long way.

 

[SS-18 ICBM]

I reload when I do something incredibly bone-headed with regards to military tactics. I use it as a learning experience. It's more of the "entire army got routed and annihilated" mistakes and not "acceptable losses".

 

[Left Foot]

I reload whenever I feel it will make my gaming experience more enjoyable. And I definitely do not feel any shade of remorse or shame when I do so. This also applies to any and every game.

 

[snarzberry]

Ok I'll throw this out there because I think I deserve some HEAVY praise for this.

Deity standard-everything continents game as Denmark I'm going for a space race victory. I have a peninsula at the bottom of one of the continents and I'm at war with Oda who has a much larger military than me but can't penetrate my defences (first game I've really used a citadel to good effect). I have 4 more techs in total that I need to begin building the last 2 spaceship parts, my smaller 3 cities are just finishing off the thrusters.

So I have 2 RAs coming in 5 turns and I have Oxford University that I can build in one turn in my capital and I have a Great Scientist saved waiting to bulb nanotechnology. Sweet, in 5 turns I'll have all the techs I need. My great scientist is in my capital when it get's A-BOMBED on the next turn by Oda, who proceeds to nuke me 4 four more times in the next 15 or so turns.

Great Scientist - dead. Fleet of bombers - destroyed. Hopes of beginning the final spaceship part in 3 or 4 turns -dashed. Just a short time later and my capital has a population of 4 which is the same number of times it has been A-bombed by japanese scum.

I still came so close to winning, waiting for an extra dozen or so turns to tech nano the hard way and then building the final part in my second city. I just couldn't stop Napoleon from winning a Diplomatic victory, even though I sold my three small cities to try and buy enough votes to stop him winning. He had around 100K gold at this point.

So anyway, if my GS didn't die in the villainous A-Bomb attack on Copenhagen by Nobunaga (who, p.s., had been my main ally for almost the entire game) I almost certainly would have won.
I am now his sworn enemy for life.

All in all it was a fun game and even in defeat I'm glad I didn't reload to save the scientist's life and cheese my way to victory.

 

[Jaybe]

...
If you are playing at such a difficulty level that 'bleep' can't happen, you're playing at too high a level.
Once you slide to the dark side of reloading, when do you NOT reload?

...

If there's a turn that I make a major decision point (e.g., go for UN -OR- Space victory when Gandhi has the whole other continent -- I lost by 4 turns in that one), I'll save the game with an appropriate file name so I can try an alternative route.
... Not that I've ever gone back and tried an alternate. I just wait a few days and start a new game (large continents/epic speed).

After I said all that (in post 2), yesterday I accidentally agreed to a friendship request which I really did not want. Reloaded the previous turn's autosave (I have autosaves set to every turn, 4 of them).

Found out that AI diplomacy requests occur before the end, not at the beginning, of a turn and autosaves save at the end, not the beginning, of a turn. Really, I didn't know that before!

The agreeing to a friendship request is somehow a persistent problem for me, in that I have to take particular care in pressing the correct button. I want them bigger, more distinct, and colored (yes/green, no/red)!

 

[TheMeInTeam]

With Maritime cities, that helps reduce some difficulty with terrain. You can also use your small size to focus on culture instead and your isolated position to protect you from invasion.

The powerful enemy is the only situation that comes closest, but that certainly isn't a situation that you won't find out about for 100 turns. They'll likely rush you early. Even then, Archer and Bronze Working go a long way.

I'd rather be early rushed. What I find the hardest is meeting said 40 city AI on another continent. On high difficulties this can happen, albeit not every time. One AI will occasionally steamroll everyone on the other continent completely, which cuts off your RAs (can't sign them with the dead and you don't want to sign them with the super AI) and makes it extremely difficult to compete with the AI bonuses. This is not a turn 0 loss like you have in IV sometimes though, but rather a runaway AI getting out of hand. Some of those games are still possible to win though, because the AI getting through the tech tree and actually winning are 2 different things. Even so, it's a frustrating situation.

If they early rush me, although it makes the start undynamic, I can just kill all their units and then they're sitting ducks.

 

[MadDjinn]

I've seen 'no win' situations.

Start on a continents map in the middle of the continent with 3 AI on the flanks surrounding you and taking all of the coast with their initial settlers. they all settle towards you and then eventually all DoW... no space, no new cities, too many carpet salesmen...

It sucks, but that's randomness for you. respin the map and hope for a better start.

 

[snarzberry]

What I find the hardest is meeting said 40 city AI on another continent. On high difficulties this can happen, albeit not every time. One AI will occasionally steamroll everyone on the other continent completely, which cuts off your RAs (can't sign them with the dead and you don't want to sign them with the super AI) and makes it extremely difficult to compete with the AI bonuses. This is not a turn 0 loss like you have in IV sometimes though, but rather a runaway AI getting out of hand. Some of those games are still possible to win though, because the AI getting through the tech tree and actually winning are 2 different things. Even so, it's a frustrating situation.

The game does take on a different dynamic when this happens, as it does now and again on imm/deity continents. It's nice to meet the other continent and have a group of stable RA and trading partners but sometimes the game throws a spanner in the works. If the described situation happens then it makes tech parity with the runaway all but impossible. This makes domination all but impossible.

You are right, however, that this doesn't guarantee a loss as the AI doesn't take full advantage of the powerful position and you can sometimes sneak your way to a science win.

I don't usually mind RAing with the superpower as whether we sign agreements or not they will likely be in future tech long before I achieve whatever tech goals I have, so I figure you may as well take an easy tech or two.

 

[iggymnrr]

Its okay to reload ... when you gift a military CS a warrior for the influence and it gives you another warrior.

 

[wannabewarlord]

Funny, I have made most of the mistakes posted here at least once. I don't even wanna know about my misclicks. But the problem with misclicks is that they usually happen on turn 9 of a 10 turn intervall autosave (I guess I could change that ) and then I simply cannot be arsed to replay 9 turns. That plus the fact that I am too impatient to wait for the loading screen (even though my machine does load games rather fast) basically never makes me reload. I much rather start a new game or just suck it up and deal with the error.

So while I do think it is ok to reload whenever you feel like (it is YOUR game, YOUR time and YOUR enjoyment) and surely because of many of the above mentioned errors, I don't do it. Call me lazy if you will

 

[Blue Oyster]

The only way to prove that a given start is a "No-Win" situation is to try all possible paths and find there is no branch that contains a "victory" end state. And to my knowledge, no one has done that. I've seen declarations that set out a set of circumstances and claim there is no way to win from that starting state, but that is quite a different thing.

On the other hand, it is straightforward (but not necessarily easy) to prove that a given start, claimed to be unwinnable is, in fact, winnable.

I will claim that is is possible for someone to submit a starting position, assert that it is unwinnable, and then someone will find a way to win it.

I also claim it is possible for someone to submit a starting position, claim it is unwinnable, and no one finds a way to win it, but it is nonetheless a winnable position.

 

[MadDjinn]

The only way to prove that a given start is a "No-Win" situation is to try all possible paths and find there is no branch that contains a "victory" end state. And to my knowledge, no one has done that. I've seen declarations that set out a set of circumstances and claim there is no way to win from that starting state, but that is quite a different thing.

On the other hand, it is straightforward (but not necessarily easy) to prove that a given start, claimed to be unwinnable is, in fact, winnable.

I will claim that is is possible for someone to submit a starting position, assert that it is unwinnable, and then someone will find a way to win it.

I also claim it is possible for someone to submit a starting position, claim it is unwinnable, and no one finds a way to win it, but it is nonetheless a winnable position.

ooo, logic that comes with an open ended statement to ensure that it can be put forth as 'true'. amusing, but useless.

 

[blasto]

Ok I'll throw this out there because I think I deserve some HEAVY praise for this.

Deity standard-everything continents game as Denmark I'm going for a space race victory. I have a peninsula at the bottom of one of the continents and I'm at war with Oda who has a much larger military than me but can't penetrate my defences (first game I've really used a citadel to good effect). I have 4 more techs in total that I need to begin building the last 2 spaceship parts, my smaller 3 cities are just finishing off the thrusters.

So I have 2 RAs coming in 5 turns and I have Oxford University that I can build in one turn in my capital and I have a Great Scientist saved waiting to bulb nanotechnology. Sweet, in 5 turns I'll have all the techs I need. My great scientist is in my capital when it get's A-BOMBED on the next turn by Oda, who proceeds to nuke me 4 four more times in the next 15 or so turns.

Great Scientist - dead. Fleet of bombers - destroyed. Hopes of beginning the final spaceship part in 3 or 4 turns -dashed. Just a short time later and my capital has a population of 4 which is the same number of times it has been A-bombed by japanese scum.

I still came so close to winning, waiting for an extra dozen or so turns to tech nano the hard way and then building the final part in my second city. I just couldn't stop Napoleon from winning a Diplomatic victory, even though I sold my three small cities to try and buy enough votes to stop him winning. He had around 100K gold at this point.

So anyway, if my GS didn't die in the villainous A-Bomb attack on Copenhagen by Nobunaga (who, p.s., had been my main ally for almost the entire game) I almost certainly would have won.
I am now his sworn enemy for life.

All in all it was a fun game and even in defeat I'm glad I didn't reload to save the scientist's life and cheese my way to victory.

A cheaters prospective: you coulda did this and enjoyed your loss... and then reloaded and tried to win from that point.