Jaguars bad? think again.Aztec strategy

[warpstorm]

The secret is to crank them out till you have a stack of about a dozen with Cover I've found that this eats the early AI archer defense.

Oggums, he was implying that they are trying to hook up Copper, not just research Bronze Working. Remember, the Aztecs only have to research, not connect. This can give you a few turns grace period.

 

[Doctor Love]

But still you have to chop barracks, then I assume chop a bunch of Jaguar warriors. If so, you might take out one AI civ, but unless you're playing a duel map you just blew all your forests on units that will be obsolete in another 20 turns. As I don't really get a kick out of rushes on tiny duel maps, it seems rather limited to me.

 

[Artanis]

Honest question: why do they have to chop Barracks? Montezuma, being Aggressive, gets them for 30 Hammers, so he's bound to get them done by the time IW comes in.

 

[Memphus]

Would anyone be more inclined to use the aztec and jaguar if they came with bronze working? or even some other tech (i dunno archery )

In any case thier limiting factor is as zafro says

well, do not try to come near this copper mine if it´s guarded by a single axeman because your 2 jaguar will be devoured by it...

But if you could get them there before...(very possible if available with early tech) you could kill at least one civ before you got destroyed.

And other threads have discussed other ways to make them better:
such as Add an attack bonus for attacking a unit in a forest or jungle (BTW this is one promotion I definetly want added for all units )


As for the new patch, it reduced the cost of the Jaguar from 40 hammers to 35 I believe

 

[Dracleath]

The secret is to crank them out till you have a stack of about a dozen with Cover I've found that this eats the early AI archer defense.

Oggums, he was implying that they are trying to hook up Copper, not just research Bronze Working. Remember, the Aztecs only have to research, not connect. This can give you a few turns grace period.

... you don't have to connect copper to build axemen, you just need to drop a settler on the deposit and then you can chop rush all the axemen you want.

 

[zafyro]

i still would make an axe rush instead of a jaguar. I don´t see the units are even near... it might be that axes are overpowered.

Try to build Axes instead of jaguars and give them cover to beat archers and you´ll see that you get the same results a lot of turns before you used to.

 

[Ozyman8]

Well he doesn't need iron to make a Jaguar, but with only 5 attack it's not enough to rush - by the time he gets a couple of them to an enemy city on Monarch or above, AI will already have a stack of Archers. A stack of fortified archers in a city is tough enough to kill with promoted swordsmen, much less jaguars.

Have you played as the Aztecs more than once or twice??

On Monarch Jaguar Warriors easily defeat the AI. I tried again a few minutes ago and vanquished 2 cities and 27 units, primarily archers. You have to play to their strengths--they get +10% city attack, +25 jungle defense, combat I, cover, cost 5 hammers less than swordsmen, and don't require hooking up an iron mine.

On larger maps, they'll only take out the nearest opponent.

 

[Ozyman8]

Try to build Axes instead of jaguars and give them cover to beat archers and you´ll see that you get the same results a lot of turns before you used to.

Common: research Mining + research Bronze + build Barracks

Jaguars:
1. research Iron

Axemen:
1. research Wheel + build Worker* + build Mine** + build Road
2. build settler* and settle on copper mine**

*stalls population growth ......... **depends on copper

Hmm.... which do you think's faster?

Also +10% city attack helps more than +50% melee when fighting archers.

 

[Ozyman8]

To DaveMcW - Monarch, 50 BC. No doubt, you are a good player. But can you beat that date... with Gandhi??

 

[Gufnork]

I can win Dual Pangaea on Deity with any civ. This proves nothing.

While this rush is decent, try playing Cyrus instead. Research Animal Husbandry first. If you have horses nearby, rush Immortals. If not research Bronze Working. If you have bronze nearby, rush Axemen. If not, research Iron Working. If you have Iron nearby rush Swordsmen. If you have neither of these resources nearby, you're really unlucky. This might take slightly longer than a Jaguar rush, but each of these units is superior to a Jaguar.

Or try a Quechua rush as has been previously mentioned, it's very similar to the Jaguar. Requires no resources, beats archers, gets slaughtered by axemen and can be built early. It's only weakness compared to the Jaguar is chariots.

 

[Doctor Love]

Have you played as the Aztecs more than once or twice??

On Monarch Jaguar Warriors easily defeat the AI. I tried again a few minutes ago and vanquished 2 cities and 27 units, primarily archers. You have to play to their strengths--they get +10% city attack, +25 jungle defense, combat I, cover, cost 5 hammers less than swordsmen, and don't require hooking up an iron mine.

On larger maps, they'll only take out the nearest opponent.

If a Jaguar warrior has +10% city attack that gives them an effective attack rating of 5.5 when assaulting cities. Archers have +50% city defense which means they start out at 4.5, and assuming a fortify bonus of 25%, you're basically looking at a wash. If the city is on a hill you're at a disadvantage. Now, AI being AI, if they are dumb and don't defend your attack well by putting big stacks of archers in their cities, you can certainly rush and use 2-3 Quechas to kill each archer, but from what I've seen if you're next to an aggressive civ like Tokogawa or Monte, they will be producing units just as fast as you are.

So to answer your question, no I haven't played Aztecs that many times because I feel their UU is a waste. I would be interested to know how you were slaughtering 27 archers with what amounts to even odds unless you caught a bunch of them out of cities.

 

[Oggums]

I've played Aztecs several times, and I don't use the Jaguars to rush. I pretty much only build them if I don't have copper or iron. The 10% city attack bonus doesn't help enough to warrant building them over city raider axes, which fare much better vs. the swords and spears you'll also see. The AI doesn't only build archers.

And you can axe rush much more quickly, so if you already have copper, there's no need to bother with iron working. Get the same thing done faster with axes.

 

[warpstorm]

If a Jaguar warrior has +10% city attack that gives them an effective attack rating of 5.5 when assaulting cities.

Actually, it is a 6 because all Jags start with Combat 1. Assuming that you build a barracks (and if you are planning a rush you really should), you will also have either another 20% shift because of City Raider 1 or if you know your enemy unit types a 25% from Shock or Cover. Going against the AI I mostly use Cover as they like archer defenders.

This makes their effective Strength 5 + 45% against Archers in Cities.

BTW, this is a 7.25 vs a 5.25 for non-hill cities.

 

[DaviddesJ]

Actually, it is a 6 because all Jags start with Combat 1. Assuming that you build a barracks (and if you are planning a rush you really should), you will also have either another 20% shift because of City Raider 1 or if you know your enemy unit types a 25% from Shock or Cover. Going against the AI I mostly use Cover as they like archer defenders.

This makes their effective Strength 5 + 45% against Archers in Cities.

BTW, this is a 7.25 vs a 5.25 for non-hill cities.

That's not how combat works. The 25% for Cover (or 20% for City Raider I) subtracts from the defender's bonus, rather than adding to your bonus. Which makes it much less valuable.

I also don't understand how you added 10% and 25% to get 45%, or how you got 75% for the archer.

 

[Ozyman8]

@Gufnork: Those are good strategies and I prefer Incans for early rushes. I was countering Doctor Love's earlier post that asserted jaguar rushes wouldn't work on Monarch.

@Oggums: If you rush early, 90%-100% of their units will be archers, at least on Monarch and below. The Aztecs can build two jaguars before they can build two axemen.

@Doctor Love: They defended with stacks of 6 archers per city and counter-attacked with stacks of 3 archers. However, archers are not enough. They could neither expand nor build.

 

[warpstorm]

You are right, ddj.

Jags are 5 + 10% for Combat 1 which they always start with.

This makes their attack a 5.5.

The defense of an archer fortified in a city is 3 + 50% for being in a city + 25% for fortifying = 3 + 75%. Now subtract off the city attack (-10%) and the Cover (-25%). This makes them 3 + 40%.

Okay, I think the correct value is 5.5 vs 4.2 (unless I had another brain fart).

Note that archers do get a first strike.

Edit: the -10% city attack is a Jag special ability.

 

[DaviddesJ]

You are right, ddj.

Jags are 5 + 10% for Combat 1 which they always start with.

This makes their attack a 5.5.

The defense of an archer fortified in a city is 3 + 50% for being in a city + 25% for fortifying = 3 + 75%. Now subtract off the city attack (-10%) and the Cover (-25%). This makes them 3 + 40%.

Okay, I think the correct value is 5.5 vs 4.2 (unless I had another brain fart).

Note that archers do get a first strike.

City raider is 20%. But you're only going to have City Raider I or Cover, not both, until you get a 5th XP. And the defending units might have promotions too. The defenders will also typically get at least +20%, and perhaps +40%, from the city's defense.

 

[Ozyman8]

Here's the bonuses and penalties from an actual game:

AI Colony
-----------
Jaguar (str:5) +25% cover, +10% combat I, +10% city attack
Archer (str:3) +50% city defense

Attackers Strength = 5 + 5 x (0.10) = 5.50
Defenders Strength = 3 + 3 x (.50 -.25 -.10) = 3.45

AI Capital
-----------
Jaguar (str:5) +25% cover, +20% city raider I, +10% combat I, +10% city attack
Archer (str:3) +60% tile defense, +50% city defense, +25% fortify bonus, +20% city garrison I

Attackers Strength = 5 + 5 x (0.10) = 5.50
Defenders Strength = 3 + 3 x (.60 +.50 +.25 +.20 -.25 -.20 -.10) = 6.00

AI Archer Attack
-------------------------
Archer (str:3) +10% combat I
Jaguar (str:5) +50% tile defense + 25% cover + 25% fortify bonus + 10% combat I

Attackers Strength = 3 + 3 x (0.10) = 3.30
Defenders Strength = 5 + 5 x (.50 + .25 + .25 + .10) = 10.50

 

[thordk]

you need bronze working before you get to iron working.

what's the most common turns you need to get to iron working? 20?

my first research would be bronze, meanwhile building a worker.
then i chop a settler, takes approx. 9 turns.

this settler is planted on a bronze resource. takes maybe 2-3 turns.

~9 turns left to chop some axemen. that's 2 of them and a third one ready 3 turns later.

so i have at least 2 axemen when your first jaguar is built. that's enough

 

[cleverhandle]

OK, this thread piqued my interest enough that I played a few Emp starts as Monte. I should probably try Monarch instead, since I have a hard time at Emperor already, but I just don't see how to play this guy. Apart from the specific question of "Are Jaguars teh suck?", what are people's broader thoughts on strategies to play Monte? In particular, what do you do for tech? It seems like a total waste of an innate advantage not to go for Hinduism (which I can always get on Emp by emphasizing commerce and/or burning hut gold), but that's just about the polar opposite of what you want for a civ that needs to stake out strategic resources early on. In games where I've gotten lucky with hut techs I can manage a decent position, but that's obviously not a strategy. It just seems like the civ is a mess of contradictions...