Just how old is civilization?

[Kyriakos]

If those other apes had nuclear weapons, the planet would already be dead.
Humans as a species aren't great, but certainly far better than the rest of the miserable beings on Earth.

There was one short story by De Maupassant, where a person is entrusted with taking care of an old horse. The horse was loved by its owners, but now they can't deal with it, out of sympathy and sadness for its inevitable end.
So the man they pay to feed it, hates the horse, out of thinking that it's a stupid animal which doesn't deserve money spent on it.

Moral of the story being that all the people let their emotions dictate the meaningless stuff they do - and there's the horse, which was simply incapable of understanding why it had to suffer so much.

 

[Birdjaguar]

In the end, this is a general debate over a pessimistic or optimistic view on History (which one is Hegel again?) and so open to debate. But I recommend "Humankind" by Rutger Bregman where he takes apart a lot of very popular misconceptions and bad examples for humanity, like "the lord of the flies" or "the Standford experiment". It's worth a read and gives you hope for humanity!

As soon as one defines "civilization" is it pretty easy to narrow down a window for its beginnings.

 

[PiR]

As soon as one defines "civilization" is it pretty easy to narrow down a window for its beginnings.

Not killing & eating with a fork.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Not killing & eating with a fork.

Then at least two thirds of the world is not there yet regarding the fork idea. Not killing what? Children? People in general? Animals? Living things?

 

[Perfection]

we've never been civilized and probably never will be

 

[Kyriakos]

we've never been civilized and probably never will be

I don't think that's true. At least some individuals appear to be highly civilized. Why do you hate Archimedes?

 

[PiR]

Then at least two thirds of the world is not there yet regarding the fork idea. Not killing what? Children? People in general? Animals? Living things?

I forgot: discussing calmy on a forum instead of insulting each other on X.

 

[Yeekim]

Relevant:

The World’s Oldest Wooden Structure Has Just Been Discovered—And It’s 467,000 Years Old

In Zambia, archaeologists discovered evidence suggesting that early humans may have been less nomadic—and more intelligent—than once thought

www.architecturaldigest.com

 

[Perfection]

I don't think that's true. At least some individuals appear to be highly civilized. Why do you hate Archimedes?

dude can't take a bath without making a mess all over the floor

 

[innonimatu]

Still on my Neandertlahs were no extinghushed brutes thing, Neanderthal cuisine: Excavations reveal Neanderthals were as intelligent as Homo sapiens

Neanderthals were capable of symbolic thought, could create artistic objects, knew how to decorate their bodies using personal ornaments and had an extremely varied diet. Add to that that, based on our findings, we can say with certainty that they habitually ate cooked food. This ability confirms that they were as skilled as the Homo sapiens who lived millennia later."

Cuisine - all right, cooking, let's not get pretentions - as part of the beginnings of civilization?

 

[Plotinus]

Homo erectus is known to have used fire and have cooked, so it would be extraordinary if Neanderthals didn’t. But it does mean that cooking predates civilisation by at least hundreds of thousands of years.

 

[Aiken_Drumn]

For those not aware, there has recently been some long-lost short stories rediscovered and published from Terry Pratchett. The first is a humorous look at the invention of fire.

 

[Absolution]

Shouldn't it be easier to first look at current human societies, and ask ourselves which ones are not civilised?
Then list the differences, and search for their origins.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Shouldn't it be easier to first look at current human societies, and ask ourselves which ones are not civilised?
Then list the differences, and search for their origins.

Are any civilized? You have to define civilized first.

 

[Plotinus]

It’s easy. The further from Oxford they are, the less civilised they are.

 

[Birdjaguar]

It’s easy. The further from Oxford they are, the less civilised they are.

Our friends in OZ and NZ might be offended.....But all things considered, you might be right.

 

[Kyriakos]

It’s easy. The further from Oxford they are, the less civilised they are.

The descent to Hades is the same from all places

 

[PPQ_Purple]

I think it's safe to say that if a society reaches the level of organization necessary to wage actual proper wars it probably counts as civilization. And given that it's known that chimps wage organized tribal wars I'd say civilization is probably older than human kind.

That's really the problem with all these soft social sciences terms. Unless you make a strict definition you can draw the line where ever you want. And even if you do the lines are always fuzzy because at the end of the day all you're doing is trying to codify what amounts to "I know it when I see it."

 

[Kyriakos]

"I know it when I see it" is very important. It's how (among other things) visual art will be produced - humans reacting to their AI tool - in the near future.
You can think of it as a conscious axiom, which isn't conscious of the statement it makes, overlooking the system based on it.