Late Game Balance

[notque]

I've converted over JFD's Roosevelt with the Iowa Battleship, and trying to get the UU right has me thinking a lot about late game balance.

So many of us win before late game, or quit and know we've won before late game. I've been playing with starts in the late game to test the battleship and get everything running, and balance seems really poor. It could be because starting in later eras just doesn't work out well, or other reasons.

Does anyone have extensive experience in the late game on VP that can comment on balance? It feels like it needs a balance pass, and I'm just curious if that's been done, and we're happy with it, or if it's an open item that never got addressed.

 

[Txurce]

I've converted over JFD's Roosevelt with the Iowa Battleship, and trying to get the UU right has me thinking a lot about late game balance.

So many of us win before late game, or quit and know we've won before late game. I've been playing with starts in the late game to test the battleship and get everything running, and balance seems really poor. It could be because starting in later eras just doesn't work out well, or other reasons.

Does anyone have extensive experience in the late game on VP that can comment on balance? It feels like it needs a balance pass, and I'm just curious if that's been done, and we're happy with it, or if it's an open item that never got addressed.

The battleship itself seems balanced to me, but I almost never build the full range of late-game military, so can't comment on that.

 

[tu_79]

Thing is, even if you can potentially have an upgraded army, it doesn't happen if your army is big. You are fighting with some newer units and many older units, add some planes to the rife and that's it. I almost never upgrade my planes. Game is finished by then. Maybe it's me not wanting to spend too much time in fights late game.

 

[Favorius]

- production cost vs purchase cost is in favor of purchasing. I usually find myself buying units instead of producing.
- nukes are used extensively by AI. I do not see any global repercussions for nuking.
- intelligence agency is very strong for tall play. (I won 2 venice games at emperor and immortal with it)

Except nuke frenzy, late game balance is fine i think.

 

[bigcat88]

In late game the ultimate promoted airplanes on carriers + battleships + usual promoted tanks/infantry can win any AI's army. Of course non nuclear must have effect. Or some parts of army will be nuked.
And corporations if u are a big order nation are just OP. Gergio(unlimited culture),Hexxon(coal+oil monopolies, and with this u don't need high promoted army - after one war all new purchased army be like old pro veterans from start of a game),Centaur(laaarge production boost - zerg all ur enemies with just endless armies) and others...
Late game give too much different possibilities so it is very hard to balance it and to teach AI to know how to play against lategame tactics.

 

[Enginseer]

In late game combat varies drastically.

Trench Warfare(fortifying hard) is a must-have where pre-late was recommended, but not mandatory. You use your armor units to attempt to break their trenches and then retreat back behind your trenches. Eventually aircrafts start to play into factor which can wear down your trench which you counter back with anti-aircraft to strengthen your trench. Then you fight and fight for tiles and tiles of lands.

If it's naval warfare that's a big different story of flanking and optimization of movement points.

 

[Deadstarre]

I just finished a game, first time in awhile. The only thing I can say for certain is that scholars in residence is wayyy too strong- it is extremely easy to pass since everyone except tech leader is fine with it, and then everybody just races through techs like science output for the rest of the game was completely irrelevant. Even once everybody is equal in tech, it continues to push techs at a ridiculous clip since not everyone takes the same tech at the same time, so it completely warps the SV vs DV vs CV balance. In my game I had already lowered the minor ally multiplier ( %5 each up to %50 is truly absurd) from 5 to 3 but it made no difference.

I've noticed the AI rarely (if ever?) proposes this on their own, they honestly dont take much notice of it either way as I assume they think of it as somewhat neutral to good (if they arent tech leader), so I pretty much get full control over when it happens and when it goes away. I assume this is why this proposal has flown under the radar thus far as to how greatly (badly) it affects games? I dunno, but I'm about ready to try another game with this proposal disabled so I could see what the late game balance is actually like.

 

[Funak]

I'm not sure I have anything to add to the actual late game balance, but figured I'd point out that I believe a battle-ship UU is both way too late and way too hard to pull off. I mean there is a good reason why there aren't that many siege weapon UUs or even ranged ship UUs. Base units that are designed to knock cities over just don't make very good unique units, any small change to them is going to have a massive impact on the game so you're going to end up with a unit that is too good at what it does while simultaneously looking extremely under-powered and boring on paper.

Battleships are also like really late. Most people kinda disregards the panzer as it unlocks too late to be very useful, this unit unlocks even later.

 

[notque]

No one has pulled it off yet, and I'm trying to deal with the late game civs first, so the next civ I've started on is Hitler.

I think the only way it will feel good enough is it to be overpowered, and the same is true for the UA since you only get that through most of the game. The UAs need to be the engines to get into the late game.

It's going to be super tricky, but it's something to do.

 

[BiteInTheMark]

I just finished a game, first time in awhile. The only thing I can say for certain is that scholars in residence is wayyy too strong- it is extremely easy to pass since everyone except tech leader is fine with it, and then everybody just races through techs like science output for the rest of the game was completely irrelevant. Even once everybody is equal in tech, it continues to push techs at a ridiculous clip since not everyone takes the same tech at the same time, so it completely warps the SV vs DV vs CV balance. In my game I had already lowered the minor ally multiplier ( %5 each up to %50 is truly absurd) from 5 to 3 but it made no difference.

I've noticed the AI rarely (if ever?) proposes this on their own, they honestly dont take much notice of it either way as I assume they think of it as somewhat neutral to good (if they arent tech leader), so I pretty much get full control over when it happens and when it goes away. I assume this is why this proposal has flown under the radar thus far as to how greatly (badly) it affects games? I dunno, but I'm about ready to try another game with this proposal disabled so I could see what the late game balance is actually like.

I think the same. Schoolars in residence have way too much influence in lategame. Not even the completed science social tree gives you that giant amount of science boost.
Even worse, if you are strong in diplomatic relations to cs, you have no problem to activate this treaty and be also the one, that gets the most benefits. Even if your tech leader, +50% science by 10 CS alliances is more than +20% other nations will have, because you have already everything researched.
The only enjoyable nation with this treaty is Germany, cause of their special building hanse, which gives +5% production for every trade route to a city state. Else, its nearly impossible to catch up with buildings and wonders by the fast discoveries.

 

[Deadstarre]

I think the same. Schoolars in residence have way too much influence in lategame

It is a vanilla proposal that has largely remained unchanged and really has no place in this mod the way it stands I think. Like so many other things not worth waiting around for someone else to fix though, can handle it yourself in 2 minutes and fix your own games. Heres what I did

C:\Program Files (x86)\Sid Meier's Civilization V\Assets\DLC\Expansion2\Gameplay\XML\GameInfo

Edit the Civ5Resolutions file - search for "MemberDiscoveredTechMod" and change the value. (I changed from 20 to 10 before trying a new game, will see how it goes, I may adjust again)

about the extra %5 per ally you can change that too

C:\Users\xxx\Documents\My Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 5\MODS\(3) CSD for CBP\DLL

edit the AddDefines.Sql file - search for SCHOLAR_MINOR_ALLY_MULTIPLIER and change the value ( I'm setting mine to 1 before trying a new game, gonna try that)

 

[CrazyG]

The world congress proposals are probably due for one of those tuning threads

 

[notque]

In that case, I want one option that skips your vote or something. When there is no choice that you want, or no choice that doesn't piss everyone else off, it's extremely frustrating.

 

[Enginseer]

In that case, I want one option that skips your vote or something. When there is no choice that you want, or no choice that doesn't piss everyone else off, it's extremely frustrating.

So abstaining? Besides the World Congress Reformation Mod already addresses this for people who have a lot of votes where they can just reshuffle the politics in World Congress by having the ability to choose a different host.

 

[Jarula]

Y not a mod that steals some units from future world's maybe a wonder basically copying elements from beyond earth.

 

[Bromar1]

As far as units go, I think there are way too many types with way too low unit cap. Paratroopers, bombers, fighters, anti air, submarines, bazooka, etc are all new unit lines that you can't upgrade into. That means that as a tall civ playing at your unit cap, you suddenly run out of options. You have to disband your main forces to make room for the new types.

 

[Jarula]

I think the new types is the best part. It basically means you can't rely on the same units all game.

 

[Moi Magnus]

As far as units go, I think there are way too many types with way too low unit cap. Paratroopers, bombers, fighters, anti air, submarines, bazooka, etc are all new unit lines that you can't upgrade into. That means that as a tall civ playing at your unit cap, you suddenly run out of options. You have to disband your main forces to make room for the new types.

The fact that you can't upgrade into does not change anything in a relevant way. Unless your unit is level 5+, it is not worth upgrading and you should build/buy new units instead (disbanding your oldest units).
If you look at cost, upgrading two times is more expensive than buying a new unit, and building units (and investing in buildings) is more efficient than buying units (and not investing in units), so the difference between cycling your units by building new ones or upgrading is HUGE, and not worth it except for very high level units.