Liberty does not work for Deity

my experience is that unless you plan to warmonger earlier than ideologies, you better just stick with Tradition when we are talking about Deity.

Warmongering from the get-go is by far the easiest and quickest way. The fast Deity wins have been with Liberty and Honor and are over before the Industrial. I'm not usually that quick, but I consistently get the job done before Modern.

So saying 'Liberty is no good because Tradition is better if you reach the Modern era' is like saying 'Chopsticks are no good because you can't use them to eat soup'. The strategies are so different that it invalidates the original premise, I think.

All the possible social policy trees available at the start 'work' for Deity. How good they are compared with one another is a different matter entirely. Tradition is the clear king for CV and SV. Liberty and Piety are pretty good for Diplo. Honor kicks ass for DomV (which is not to say that you can't also go Liberty or Tradition for it).
 
Warmongering from the get go can be a fairly substantial risk, though. If you have peaceful neighbours that keep their army counts low it can be fine, but if you have the Huns or Zulu, or even someone like Napoleon, you can end up just in a meatgrinder where you can't match their production, or make progress. Especially in rough terrain.
 
Here is the secret to Liberty: Liberty is all about tile management. Even more specifically, Liberty is all about tile PURCHASING.

With Tradition's fast border expansion, it's easy to just plop your city down in a nice location and let it do its thing. It's also easy to let the computer auto-assign tiles if you don't like manual management, since all cities have basically the same need to get big and maxxxed out.

Liberty will not naturally get all the tiles. You need to be buying tiles EXTREMELY aggressively to connect resources, then sell those resources to the AI for gold, then use that gold to purchase new tiles with new resources, and so on and so forth. If you play Liberty, you need to keep tile-purchasing considerations in mind at all times when founding cities. If you found a city and can't purchase the tiles you want in good time, then your city development will be stunted and you WILL eventually lose those tiles to the AI.

This, I think, is why so many people struggle with Liberty. If you aren't very attentive about micromanaging your tiles, then you're basically crippling yourself by playing without the Tradition opener.
 
Here is the secret to Liberty: Liberty is all about tile management. Even more specifically, Liberty is all about tile PURCHASING.

With Tradition's fast border expansion, it's easy to just plop your city down in a nice location and let it do its thing. It's also easy to let the computer auto-assign tiles if you don't like manual management, since all cities have basically the same need to get big and maxxxed out.

Liberty will not naturally get all the tiles. You need to be buying tiles EXTREMELY aggressively to connect resources, then sell those resources to the AI for gold, then use that gold to purchase new tiles with new resources, and so on and so forth. If you play Liberty, you need to keep tile-purchasing considerations in mind at all times when founding cities. If you found a city and can't purchase the tiles you want in good time, then your city development will be stunted and you WILL eventually lose those tiles to the AI.

This, I think, is why so many people struggle with Liberty. If you aren't very attentive about micromanaging your tiles, then you're basically crippling yourself by playing without the Tradition opener.

Liberty is ok I guess but it worries me a bit because liberty cities and its units have difficulty protecting themselves particularly from barbarians. With the lack of oligarchy, liberty cities have been difficult to defend. The only advantage to defending a liberty is unit purchasing as well as getting a good production to make mass units. Not only that but if you want to defend liberty, then you need to make troops earlier since troops cost money and it seems that liberty can easily make the gold per turn by being able to get the trade route connections up sooner than tradition.
 
Here is the secret to Liberty: Liberty is all about tile management. Even more specifically, Liberty is all about tile PURCHASING.

With Tradition's fast border expansion, it's easy to just plop your city down in a nice location and let it do its thing. It's also easy to let the computer auto-assign tiles if you don't like manual management, since all cities have basically the same need to get big and maxxxed out.

Liberty will not naturally get all the tiles. You need to be buying tiles EXTREMELY aggressively to connect resources, then sell those resources to the AI for gold, then use that gold to purchase new tiles with new resources, and so on and so forth. If you play Liberty, you need to keep tile-purchasing considerations in mind at all times when founding cities. If you found a city and can't purchase the tiles you want in good time, then your city development will be stunted and you WILL eventually lose those tiles to the AI.

This, I think, is why so many people struggle with Liberty. If you aren't very attentive about micromanaging your tiles, then you're basically crippling yourself by playing without the Tradition opener.

This strategy sounds like it would make America and Angkor Wat actually useful (for the record, I never thought America was useless, but many others seem to feel it is).
 
I really think if you want to play Liberty you at least need a couple of cultural ruins, and open Tradition before Liberty just to get the faster border growth.
Tiles are just too expensive to buy I don't know how players are supposed to spend so much gold on buying land - ok the first few tiles are cheap but they get cumulitively more expensive
That 1 free culture per turn from Liberty takes forever to claim new tiles.
 
This, I think, is why so many people struggle with Liberty. If you aren't very attentive about micromanaging your tiles, then you're basically crippling yourself by playing without the Tradition opener.

Tradition gives -25% to an exponent of the plot culture cost. That exponent is by default 1.1. So, you know, the culture cost grows not only as a multiplier of a pretty substantial constant, but there's an exponent in there, so it grows in difficulty in proportion to how difficult it was for the last single tile.

Even a tiny exponent like 1.1 is no joke. 250 raised to that power is 434. You can't understand this without reference to scale, because it works on the level of scale.
This exponent applies to each term in what becomes an arithmetic series of sums, of plot expand costs. Exponentiation is not linear, so you can't pull it out of the summation, but these numbers do grow. The first plot culture cost is what, 12? The exponent makes that 15. Actual thresholds of, say, 40, 75, maybe 90, those become 57, 115, 141.

75% of 1.1 is 0.825 . This is less than 1, so this exponent shrinks its argument. And it's an exponent, so it's no joke. Here's what convinces me that the tradition opener is like hacking the developers, and taking advantage of how far they goofed the math on this (mind, this is a design problem - a programmer told to write this is just gonna write this; it's a dev/design job to tell this is wrong) . The appropriate comparison to understanding how much of a bonus that 0.825 gives you is to look at its actual difference from 1.0, not its ratio from 1, the actual 1.0 - 0.825 = 0.175 . It's almost twice as effective at reducing the nominal cost of plot accrual as the default value is at hindering it. Exponentially speaking.

Suppose it costs 50 culture to expand at base. Do you know what the 0.825th power of that number is?
Are you sharp enough to actually know what quantity equals the one just described, maybe actually calculating fractional exponents in your head, maybe a memorized table you're aware of? Either one pretty badass?

The expression 50^0.825, which is 50^(1.1 - 25%*1.1) , comes to 25.214. 25. It comes down to half the cost, and gets rounded down.
The larger the number is, the more of an impact this exponent has.

What if it cost 500 culture to grab a plot? That actually figures like this: 168.52 .

You pay a third of what you're supposed to.

That's what Tradition opener does and it's the only thing that operates on this. Religious Settlements Pantheon modifies the culture cost - it just takes off 15% after the fact of all of this.

Here's another way to be sure someone didn't understand numbers on this. They capped the modifiers for culture cost at -85%. But that's just modifiers - like the one mentioned. There is no cap on culture exponent modifiers.
If those modifiers had said -90%, the exponent would be 0.11. If they had been -100%, every plot would cost 1 culture to grab. Try not to complain to much about paying at least 15% of virtually nothing.
If they had ever been positive, the exponent would go up as portions of 1.1 , some arbitrary constant. If anyone ever alters the constant 1.1, it's only at the arbitrary value of 1.33 that Tradition's exponent modifier keeps things in the realm of a penalty.

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Pick tradition because tiles are good. You need them to get stuff.
 
As Horseshoe Hermi notes, the Tradition opener has a far more dramatic effect than many folks may realize.

To put some meat on the formula bones, at Standard speed, the culture cost of acquiring tile t+1 is FLOOR(15+(10*(t-1))^1.1,5) (note: the Floor function just rounds the plot cost down to the nearest 5 culture). So, the first tile (after the initial 6 free tiles) costs 15 culture, the second plot costs 25 culture, etc.

With the Tradition opener, the exponent does drop to .825 (75% of 1.1). As a result, plot costs behave as shown in the following table:

Tile|Base Culture Cost|Tradition Culture Cost
1|15|15
2|25|20
3|40|25
4|55|30
5|70|35
6|85|40
7|105|40
8|120|45
9|135|50
10|155|55
11|170|55
12|190|60

By the fifth tile, the Tradition culture cost per tile is half the base cost and by the eleventh tile, the Tradition cost is less than one-third the base cost.
 
Thanks for the maths that really does make some sense. I think Browd's assertion is correct. Most civ players (with the exception of the most experienced) probably focus a lot more on growth, science, production, exploring etc.... tile management is something that probably doesn't come to most players attention and liberty, piety or honor players probably spend a lot of gold buying their tiles.

If you think about it, it costs 500 gold to buy a settler (or about 400 gold to buy a library or a caravan to speed up your national college or food routes/trade) and about 50 gold upwards to buy a tile. Even just buying a couple of tiles really delays you from getting to that that 400-500 gold quickly.
That is important because it can save multiple turns of production in the capital so you can focus on other things. It is a bit like worker stealing, you're getting a free worker without having to spend any gold to buy or using production turns - so essentially you can build a wonder or a settler instead of having to get a worker.

I certainly see the immense value that the Tradition opener has. It gets the capital to 3rd ring resource tiles very quickly thus saving you a lot of gold so you can spend it on other things - that has quite a snowballing effect. And once you get to Legalism those free monuments make new cities expand their borders very quickly also.
Usually the only time I buy tiles with the Tradition opener is if I forward settle and AI, or they forward settle me and you want to secure tiles close to their border. Although quite often I may buy 1 or 2 tiles near the capital with Tradition but that is only to make sure that all my early citizens are working base 3 yield tiles - the gold cost isn't too prohibitive their as working a 3 food tile as opposed to a 2 food tile is going to ensure that your capital grows faster.
 
That just kills it right there, that table really does prove that liberty makes deity seem a lot more difficult than it already is as well as all the other starter social policies when it comes to early tile purchasing and expansion.
 
That just kills it right there, that table really does prove that liberty makes deity seem a lot more difficult than it already is as well as all the other starter social policies when it comes to early tile purchasing and expansion.

True but if you want to warmonger, Liberty is great. It helps you expand much faster, gives you an extra worker, a golden age, more production, faster tile improvement construction and also a free great person when it's complete.
 
True but if you want to warmonger, Liberty is great. It helps you expand much faster, gives you an extra worker, a golden age, more production, faster tile improvement construction and also a free great person when it's complete.

Well, yeah, I guess you can since the lack of oligarchy makes unit building a lot faster. You also have to be careful in letting people into your lands and allowing them to pplunder. Other than that liberty could snowball into later eras.
 
Why do you think Oligarchy has any relation to unit building time?

Liberty doesn't have oligarchy and instead has republic as its production increaser. Republic increases unit building time by 1 hammer which eventually adds up. Not only that the 1% increase in production eventually adds up as well.
 
Wow that math is really interesting, thanks a lot. That explains the weird feeling why all my borders were so small lately with Liberty. So actually Liberty gives you a small production bonus, the ability to do massive pillage - repairs, a free Great Person, a Golden Age that's difficult to use at that time and an early free settler. Because all the other benefits are not really that great.

Compared to massive food bonusses (= science bonusses), huge border pops, faith GEs, happiness and Gold bonusses... And well, some fillers like the Production bonusses which you might only find useful for the NC and Oligarchy which I rarely find useful.
 
Wow that math is really interesting, thanks a lot. That explains the weird feeling why all my borders were so small lately with Liberty. So actually Liberty gives you a small production bonus, the ability to do massive pillage - repairs, a free Great Person, a Golden Age that's difficult to use at that time and an early free settler. Because all the other benefits are not really that great.

Compared to massive food bonusses (= science bonusses), huge border pops, faith GEs, happiness and Gold bonusses... And well, some fillers like the Production bonusses which you might only find useful for the NC and Oligarchy which I rarely find useful.

Oligarchy does good major damage to nearby units when a unit is garrisoned inside, particularly if you have a ranged unit inside.
 
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