Live stream "The Tech Web: Midgame Choices" Thursday, Sept 18 at 2pm EST

[Acken]

Aeson, you're the only one freaking out. Maybe take a step back and take a deep breath?

Yes, Adept Blue (I keep wanting to call it Deep Blue) is strong. if it shows up in your game, you don't have to use it, you can always just burn them to the ground. Perhaps it is a bit strong and should be reduced to a big ol' shipment of beakers, but that doesn't mean you have to freak out and keep screaming at us (which it feels you are doing) when we're more worried about the game coming out in the first place than how strong or weak a single station might be.

Let the game at least come out and everyone get a few games in before you start getting all bent out of shape about how overpowered something is in a beta build.

Actually I agree with him that so far, based on available knowledge it's OP. And since it depends only on luck, stupid. As I feel ElDorado and FoY are stupid in CiV or that Spain is a stupid civ.

We don't have all the available information so maybe we're wrong but Firaxis isn't renown for their Balance skills either, especially without user feedback (well to be fair, I have yet to see a company being able to do it without user feedback).

He has a valid concern although I'm not sure arguing on civfanatics with other users will change anything. Finally, ignoring balance issues is your choice, as wishing for a balanced game is ours. Therefore saying you should ignore it is getting us nowhere in the conversation.

You realize that Adept Blue is basically the same as a spy stealing tech.

Essentially it is +1 spy...where the spy can only steal tech.
I think the idea is that with a Tech web, a Random tech is worth significantly less than its research cost. (Which could be used on a tech you want)

It May be unbalanced, but we can't be sure.

Even if that comparison is true then you'd have to compare +1 spy to the other stations benefit, that is the comparison that matters and the same argument Aeson has made would apply: can a "normal" station compete ?

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Actually I agree with him that so far, based on available knowledge it's OP. And since it depends only on luck, stupid. As I feel ElDorado and FoY are stupid in CiV or that Spain is a stupid civ.

We don't have all the available information so maybe we're wrong but Firaxis isn't renown for their Balance skills either, especially without user feedback.

He has a valid concern although I'm not sure arguing on civfanatics with other users will change anything. Finally, ignoring balance issues is your choice, as wishing for a balanced game is ours. Therefore saying you should ignore it is getting us nowhere in the conversation.



Even if that comparison is true then you'd have to compare +1 spy to the other stations benefit, that is the comparison that matters and the same argument Aeson has made would apply: can a "normal" station compete ?

The issue to remember is that even if Adept Blue/Spies give you techs worth X research points per turn, that is Not as good as station/spy activity that actually gives you X research points per turn (due to the fact that it is a random tech.)

 

[Acken]

Yes if your 2 Xs are the same that is true, or even if they are close I'd say.
But the argument is that it seems Y>>X where Y is the one from that special station. At least in expected value if the process is entirely random.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Yes if your 2 Xs are the same that is true, or even if they are close I'd say.
But the argument is that it seems Y>>X where Y is the one from that special station. At least in expected value if the process is entirely random.

Well the other stations also increase in value over time... if the process is entirely random, it will probably top out (ie the mid game majority will be ring 2 stem or ring 1 leafs)

 

[Khaim]

Well the other stations also increase in value over time... if the process is entirely random, it will probably top out (ie the mid game majority will be ring 2 stem or ring 1 leafs)

That's a good point. Even if the math checks out in the earlier posts, that's for the early game. Late game, there will be a lot of T1/T2 techs that you skipped, and you have a high chance of getting something both less valuable and unwanted. Meanwhile, the pure yield station has leveled up.

Granted, early game advantages are more important. But it's another point towards "really really good", rather than "hysteria-inducingly broken".

 

[Aeson]

Aeson,

Alpha Blue is not game breaking, from the limited information we presently have, no matter how much you rant and rave it is.

You state it gave 3 times the science, that is not true, since at MOST it gave 3 techs in the demos presented, and we have no idea if those are actual play through, or just demos set up so that he could talk about the game.

Science != Tech

Please see the comparisons of Tech cost (eg. Science)

 

[Aeson]

The issue to remember is that even if Adept Blue/Spies give you techs worth X research points per turn, that is Not as good as station/spy activity that actually gives you X research points per turn (due to the fact that it is a random tech.)

The problem is Adept Blue could give you a Tech worth much much more than the X you can get from stealing, and then the next iteration even further increase the discrepancy. (As well as being less expensive.)

That holds true up until the time when opponents have N4s at least.

 

[Aeson]

Aeson, you're the only one freaking out. Maybe take a step back and take a deep breath?

I am a very calm and rather emotionally detached person. I do believe in being thorough when addressing a subject. Perhaps that is what you are confusing with "freaking out"?

Yes, Adept Blue (I keep wanting to call it Deep Blue) is strong. if it shows up in your game, you don't have to use it, you can always just burn them to the ground. Perhaps it is a bit strong and should be reduced to a big ol' shipment of beakers, but that doesn't mean you have to freak out and keep screaming at us (which it feels you are doing) when we're more worried about the game coming out in the first place than how strong or weak a single station might be.

Let the game at least come out and everyone get a few games in before you start getting all bent out of shape about how overpowered something is in a beta build.

If you're reading text as "screaming" that says more about you than about me.

If you'd like to mathematically address the cost:benefit of Adept Blue, I would love for someone to step up and and address the expect Science output numbers.

 

[thedrizzle02]

I agree with Aeson's concerns and just hope the devs place some modifier on Adept Blue so that it can still be a cool/unique station but that it is not overpowered.

I think the idea previously mentioned of Adept Blue giving you a random tech at the lowest tier you have available may be a perfect change to keep it balanced. This will keep both the random aspect/powerful tool that trading with the station gives, but will prevent someone from leapfrogging on luck to a t3/tl3 early in the game.

The reason this would be bad for many of you who argue against it, would be that within 50 turns of beginning a trade with Adept Blue, a civ could easily jump 4 affinity levels opening up tier 3 units/affinity specific units while everyone else is barely into tier 2.....

but maybe the chances of that occuring would be small enough that it is okay to risk it, I just think in the video we saw that the ability of Adept Blue to triple the science output of a civ early game seemed somewhat silly. Maybe all stations will be that powerful and if so great! but no one should be leaps and bounds above the others in usefulness is all I think Aeson is getting at.

 

[Aeson]

Yeah. I'm far more interested in how Adept Blue might change my strategy by randomly awarding me a big pile of faction points I wasn't necessarily heading towards, or unlocking a wonder I wasn't trying for. Like Pete said, it might tip him towards Contact, even though it's not his goal. Also, what if it bumps him to 3 supremacy, and opens up a lvl 4 supremacy required building or wonder. How committed to Harmony are you? Could you fight someone, or expand somewhere you wouldn't for Firaxite? Or is it 25 wasted turns?

Such a mechanic should probably be an option (to turn off or to enable), or at least be a later game mechanic. Say a mid-game Wonder that costs several hundred production and gives random techs every X turns (probably higher than 25).

 

[ResistancKnight]

I wonder if we can plant spies in stations, since they're basically the replacement for city states. It'd be cool if we could get a spy mission to make a trade route fail or make a station leave.

As for Adapt Blue, while it probably is op (from what we've seen at least), I wouldn't want to just toss the idea out. Just getting flat production/energy/beakers/culture or the occasional military unit is kinda bland. I wonder if some stations will give you alien units? Or maybe after a large amount of turns, and a few finished routes and subsequent station tiers later you get a specialist?

I wouldn't mind adapt blue as is if you had to tier it up a few times. When it lands, you just get beakers, but after a few finished routes it starts pumping out tech in the late mid to early end game?

 

[AriochIV]

I am a very calm and rather emotionally detached person. I do believe in being thorough when addressing a subject. Perhaps that is what you are confusing with "freaking out"?

That's a bit of a joke at this point. You've made it pretty clear over the course of the last four or five pages of rants that you have absolutely no respect for the opinions of anyone who disagrees with you. Somewhere in the deep recesses of this thread you had a valid point, even though I personally disagree with it, but your contempt and hostility toward anyone who dared to disagree with you has completely invalidated any respect I might have had for your opinion (and has left me deeply disappointed with the mods who let your insulting ad-hominem attacks on gunnergoz go without rebuke).

 

[leif erikson]

Moderator Action: Please refrain from posting about each other and get back to the subject at hand.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[3of5]

Other stations might give 4 science every turn for 30 turns (after which they level up). Thats 120 beakers for a tech you can actually choose every trade route. Thats not bad either. Generally Stations are very strong in the early part of the game and tend to be less useful later on. Adepts Blue might give you more and more uninteresting low cost techs, the output of T3 stations might be smaller compared to your cities and you might look with greed at the ressources all around those stations.

to sum it up, i agree that Adept Blue would be overpowered if CivBe had the linear Civ5 tech tree. But since its a tech web, the randomness of it makes Adept Blue an OK station, sather than an OP station come midgame. And i'd say that in the early game the other stations can even compete, always dependant on your strategy though.

 

[ggmoyang]

Adept blue appears in this video too: http://youtu.be/zQz8aSX9_MI?t=17m
And I saw in my game too, it looks like it's not a rare station.

 

[Monado]

Adept Blue looks like it will be the cause of a bunch of flukey games.

Much like El Dorado (free settler on turn 8, game over I win) I'll be hoping to find a mod to remove it.

EDIT: Replied to the wrong Adept Blue complaint/argument thread.

 

[Khaim]

At this point, I think you can reply to any thread in this sub-forum with "Adept Blue is OP" and you'll be fine.

 

[gunnergoz]

At this point, I think you can reply to any thread in this sub-forum with "Adept Blue is OP" and you'll be fine.

Fine. Or pilloried. Close enough.

 

[Inhalaattori]

To sum it up, i agree that Adept Blue would be overpowered if CivBe had the linear Civ5 tech tree.

Its in fact the total opposite. Now you can get techs that would take you extremely long time to research in normal game. Also because you get free tech every 25 turns with good luck you could get some of the most expensive techs very early. This is problematic because many of these extremely expensive techs give you lots of affinity points or strong units like Aegis. Your army would be unstoppable. It is also better than spy because it potentially gives you techs that other Civs dont have. Its pretty likely that they have already build or are building wonders connected to these stolen techs.

Comparing Adept Blue to Spains Unique Ability is quite good comparison IMO. Randomly OP.

 

[AriochIV]

I think Adept Blue is problematic because it can give you couple of extremely expensive techs that give you lots of affinity points or strong units like Aegis. It is also better than spy because it potentially gives you techs that other Civs dont have. This also means its pretty likely that they have already build or are building wonders connected to these stolen techs.

Adept Blue gives you a random tech "from among those available to you when the Trade Route is complete"; that is, one you could research yourself. So while it might give you an expensive tech, it can only give you techs that you're adjacent to in the tree. (Unless I misunderstand the wording of that description.)

And while it might give you a tech with a high-level unique unit, you still have to have the affinity level to use it (and the individual +affinity on those techs isn't enough by themselves).