Ljosalfar archerrush is waaay overpowered!

[Vehem]

1) I think a hard xp cap could work. (It works for Training, yes?)

Could well be worthwhile. In the current development version the "standing next to a goblin fort getting shot" bug and the "shooting a lair defender" exploit are both dealt with (in both cases the units will generally run away, though they may attack if they're strong enough to stand a good chance, despite the bombardment damage they've already taken).

I also toned the XP gain rate down to 3%, not due to exploitation, but just because I felt they were gaining a little too high, too quickly. A hard-cap on XP gained though might be a better option for that, or a soft-cap of reduced XP for more experienced units (such that eventually the gain will reduce to 0.01 per shot for high XP units).

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We've also been playing with "Deflection" and "Reflection" mechanics for ranged attacks, which reduce and/or return damage respectively. A spell which allows a unit to reflect a % of the damage from the next ranged attack it suffers has been discussed for the Force sphere, as well as autoAcquire promotions for Melee/Archery units behind city walls with Deflection built in.

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Short term solution - the XP gain rate is set by a % value in the GlobalDefines. That can be set to any value, including 0 which will disable it.

 

[WarKirby]

I also toned the XP gain rate down to 3%, not due to exploitation, but just because I felt they were gaining a little too high, too quickly. A hard-cap on XP gained though might be a better option for that, or a soft-cap of reduced XP for more experienced units (such that eventually the gain will reduce to 0.01 per shot for high XP units).

I do like the soft cap idea.

But in general, I'd advise not making any more changes to this for now, until you get the next version out. So people can then test how it plays. If they're still complaining about it being overpowered, THEN consider capping xp

by the way, when will it be ?

 

[Vehem]

I do like the soft cap idea.

But in general, I'd advise not making any more changes to this for now, until you get the next version out. So people can then test how it plays. If they're still complaining about it being overpowered, THEN consider capping xp

by the way, when will it be ?

Xienwolf is away at the moment, but I'm going to try to finish off the features he was working on. The main problem we have is is a CtD on game loading that originated in the modular loading updates (which allow modules to be used properly). I'm not sure if the current plan is to debug that one or to redo the changes in a different way.

A lot of what Xienwolf has been doing though is work on new frameworks that can be used by any modder - it seems at the moment that any work we do in that direction is going to be reused several times over by the rest of the community, so it's very worthwhile.

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Personally I've been poking the AI some more - I wouldn't call it "super smart", but it's not the warrior-defending, tech idling, economically stunted AI you may be used to. That work is mostly a stop-gap however - it'll be reworked as a proper DLL implementation at a later date.

 

[Gummi]

Maybe you could try adding ammo to the ranged units. Such as, archers could only shoot... 10-20 times before running out of arrows, and would have to return to city to restock. Sure you could still abuse the mechanism, but it would be more tedious.

 

[Deon]

I doubt that it will be viable for AI.

I vote on XP cap .

P.S. Also gameplay-wise, why does simple shooting in the air give XP while spellcasting does not? I think it gives more real experience to weave a spell rather than to pull a bowstring. If this mechanic is in game, why should it be limited to a unitclass?

 

[PPQ_Purple]

Cut the XP they get in half, and make it so that they only get XP if they do damage and Proportionate to said damage.

 

[far_wanderer]

What about simply making archers weaker after they fire, due to having just used all of their arrows? I'm thinking something along the lines of -2 defense and no first strikes until the beginning of the next turn. That way if the enemy outnumbers you they can counterattack at much greater odds, and you have to defend your archers if you want them to be able to shoot and still survive afterwards.
Blitz should probably block that effect from being applied.

I've always found it silly that archers get a bonus in defending a city with no walls

Rooftops

P.S. Also gameplay-wise, why does simple shooting in the air give XP while spellcasting does not? I think it gives more real experience to weave a spell rather than to pull a bowstring. If this mechanic is in game, why should it be limited to a unitclass?

I agree entirely. I think passive xp gain is supposed to represent this right now, and I greatly prefer that to having to manually cast a spell each turn to train my mages (I'm imaging setting up a blaze/spring alternation for xp farming), but spellcasting xp is due for an update.

 

[Honor]

I had proposed this idea before. It got no feedback then, so here it goes again:

How about, instead of putting a cap on the amount of ranged xp an archer can get, we put a cap on the total amount of ranged xp any single unit (that is the target of a ranged attack) can give out? This system can be the ultimate solution to the whole ranged xp exploit and will even effectively enable us to make offensive spells give xp to mages without fear of abuse as well. That... and I really would love to see such a mechanic in place for my upcoming Arcane Mastery modmod.

Here's how it would work:
Each unit is assigned a variable that stores the total amount of xp it can give out for ranged attacks. When that number goes down to zero, the unit will no longer give any xp to archers or spellcasters that hurt it.

This is the best way to adapt the xp system of melee combat to ranged in my opinion, as melee combat usually ends in the elimination of one of the units, and more importantly the elimination of a source of xp - the same mechanic should be in place for ranged attacks as well (the xp "source" needs to be eliminated even if the unit is not).

 

[Deon]

"OK, guyz, we're battle-hardend now. Nau the second before an arrow hits you, cut your own throat!!! No wai thay will grind on US!"

Gameplay-wise it seems really wise.

However I can't find out a proper explanation of this feature (I like to explain things ).

 

[Honor]

OK, let's see if I can explain it somehow.

Regular combat in Civ 4 consists of many "rounds" where each party attacks one another. Each of these attacks in one regular combat round damages the opposing party, but does not yield any xp to the attacker until the opposing party dies.

Ranged attacks differ from regular combat in that each combat (i.e. ranged attack) instance can be considered one round of an entire battle (or "duel", if you will), and not the battle itself. This means, ranged combat can be seen as an integral part, or an integral round of any regular combat instances happening in the game world.

If we look at it that way, any unit suffering ranged attacks can be considered to be inside a regular civ4 combat instance and will only yield a limited amount of xp to any attacker until that combat instance ends (i.e. the unit dies).

OK, not a convincing explanation. How about we don't explain it and just incorporate it

 

[Deon]

Well, the thing you explain is a unit-on-unit combat. I was talking about multiple attackers. I.e. if one attacker "depletes" xp pool, why does another have no xp for shooting?

 

[Honor]

Well, the thing you explain is a unit-on-unit combat. I was talking about multiple attackers. I.e. if one attacker "depletes" xp pool, why does another have no xp for shooting?

You can assume they are in the same battle instance. It wasn't even a good explanation anyway. We'll simply have to accept that ranged attackers do not always gain xp when they attack.

 

[Deon]

A same battle instance in 200 turns in different places of planet?

I think that xp cap would be better. Anyway there's always so much you can learn by shooting distant targets from afar. You need some real combat to achieve epic levels.

 

[Honor]

A same battle instance in 200 turns in different places of planet?

Yup, exactly what I meant.

 

[WarKirby]

I had proposed this idea before. It got no feedback then, so here it goes again:

How about, instead of putting a cap on the amount of ranged xp an archer can get, we put a cap on the total amount of ranged xp any single unit (that is the target of a ranged attack) can give out? This system can be the ultimate solution to the whole ranged xp exploit and will even effectively enable us to make offensive spells give xp to mages without fear of abuse as well. That... and I really would love to see such a mechanic in place for my upcoming Arcane Mastery modmod.

Here's how it would work:
Each unit is assigned a variable that stores the total amount of xp it can give out for ranged attacks. When that number goes down to zero, the unit will no longer give any xp to archers or spellcasters that hurt it.

This is the best way to adapt the xp system of melee combat to ranged in my opinion, as melee combat usually ends in the elimination of one of the units, and more importantly the elimination of a source of xp - the same mechanic should be in place for ranged attacks as well (the xp "source" needs to be eliminated even if the unit is not).

I don't like this idea.

For one, it's extra data to store, that can't be really represented in a promotion.

For another, it's not immediately clear to the user WHY they're not getting xp anymore, or how much xp is left that they can get.

I'm really liking that idea about making archers weaker after doing a bombardment, though.

 

[Honor]

We better hope, then, that hard/soft archer xp cap is below 26 (Sidar love that number, you know).

By the way, is everyone really content with mages having to do some hardcore hand-to-hand training to reach the upper limits of their true potential?

 

[WarKirby]

By the way, is everyone really content with mages having to do some hardcore hand-to-hand training to reach the upper limits of their true potential?

No, I find that annoying too.

Mages get xp from ranged attacks too, which is why Force II is almost a necessary thing for them.

I think ranged capability should be taken away from Force II, and given to all arcane units by default. A Magic Missile spell or somesuch for Force II would serve nicely as a replacement.

 

[Breez]

a cap on xp from barbarian bombardment doesn't seem so bad - after all, there's a cap on barbarian combat in general.

Not in FF there isn't.

 

[Breez]

I also toned the XP gain rate down to 3%, not due to exploitation, but just because I felt they were gaining a little too high, too quickly.

...

or a soft-cap of reduced XP for more experienced units (such that eventually the gain will reduce to 0.01 per shot for high XP units).

I like these changes the best. Making Tile Defense % help reduce Bombard damage like it reduces Spell Damage would be an interesting option too. Cover Promotion could then add to that number in addition to what it already does.

 

[WarKirby]

Not in FF there isn't.

Oh, good. Because I hate that concept.
I expect it's because of all the upper level demons you have to fight when the AC gets high. In FF, the barbarians are often tougher than other civs.