LONG story with questions about WW and city spec at Noble

[jeffreyac]

OK, this is going to be a long story. I mean it. Incredibly long!

If you want to skip the narrative story and just see my questions, scroll down to the line of ********* and start reading there - it'll save you time if you're not in the mood for a wall of text. The questions will be long, too, so you won't save a LOT of time, but at least you won't have to wade through my epic narrative! OK, you've been warned!

However, if you're bored at work, read on!

I've been playing at noble, and finding it a tough fight. Recently (after much browsing of the forums) I've come to realize that I consistently make 2 mistakes that cause me to have big problems...

1) I habitually neglect my military in favor of building up lots of buildings in all cities, focusing on infrastructure even when it's probably not necessary.

2) I can't quite figure out the whole specialized city idea. I have read the War Academy articles, and threads here, but other than the GP farm and a dedicated military unit production city, I'm just not getting it - I can't figure out the hows and whys of commerce cities vs science cities, etc.

If left alone, I can grow like a madman - it's just I'm no good militarily and probably not as efficient as I could be through lack of city planning. As a result, games I win tend to be from somewhat isolated starts, where I have time to build a large empire and have my borders defended, then turtle until a tech or culture victory.

So, I decided to start a game and attack my weaknesses head on - I'd actively seek a military victory, and try some city specialization. To help with this, I chose a marathon game (to help with the wars I planned to fight). ....and, of course, to put myself in the right mindset, chose Ghengis Khan as my leader!

So I begin, and fortune smiles on me - after a bit of teching, I see horses about 4 squares from my capital. I'm on a decent sized continent, with Ghandi close to the east, the English (can't remember which leader) close to the south, and the Ottomans up to the north, a little further away. Beelining to horseback riding and about 6 keshiks later, both Ghandi and the English are wiped out (wow, those things mow through archers fast, don't they!! ) and I have 2 captured capitals added to my empire, and tons of room to grow. I head north for the Ottomans, who have found the time to grow a bit and develop spearman (guess they saw me coming... ). A war ensues, but I'm never able to keep their iron and copper properly pillaged long enough to wear them down, and war weariness finally forces me to peace.

Fast forward a few hundred turns. I am HUGE, with a fantastic empire, stretching across the continent, with towering cities that shine in the...

...hey, wait a minute...

Yep, I ended the war and immediately regressed to my old tactics. Oh, the empire is a juggernaut, and arguably one of the best I've had to date, but the focus was to be WAR, not this mamby-pamby stuff!

OK, where's my tech... almost to Cavalry, good. The only thing I've done right in the past years is I've got a GP farm that's working pretty well, and a military production city with 3 or 4 GG there - so start cranking horse units and muskets! Upgrade all to cavalry, and go pay a visit to my old friends the Ottomans, who (as they never really got past longbows, due to the pressure I put on them early) are not happy to see me. A decent war, and I vassalize his last few cities. In the meantime, I've met other civs, and now see I have a huge lead over the planet - something like 2x the next highest score, held by Mansa.

Fast forward another hundred turns or so. I'm basking in the glow of my vassal's servitude, watching the sun glint off of the towers in my huge cities, planning corporations, and.... AAAH! I DID IT AGAIN! Stupid reverting-to-old-habits! I was supposed to be FIGHTING!

OK, I check the victory screen - about 50% pop, 50% land area under my control. Cool, I've got the population for domination, just need some land. Looking around, I spot the portugese on the next continent - their land looks nice, maybe I'll go look around... Again, due to the huge lead, the portugese get carracks and musketman vs. destroyers and infantry - you can imagine how that goes... but something wierd happens - war weariness hits fast again (same thing I'd noticed with the Ottomans) and I'm forced to stop after taking just 3 cities.

Now I look again at the victory conditions. I need about 9% more land area, but I notice that (due to reverting to the old habits) I'm about 20 or 25 turns away from winning via a cultural victory. ooops.

Not sure if I can stop it - I think by the time I grab enough territory and put down resisters in the cities (to get the culture to grow/pop borders) it'll be too late. However, tanks just came online, so we'll try a tank rush for a few more cities and see how it goes!

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So, yeah, the questions:

1) War Weariness War weariness was a problem with 2 different wars, against 2 different opponents. I know there is a wonder (statue of Zues?) that doubles your war weariness, and that could indeed be why my WW in my second war spiked so quickly.
- To prevent this, I really do try for the 'short, sharp war' idea, but what else can I do to control war weariness?
- What are the mechanics here - does WW increase based on units lost, units in foreign territory, time, or all of the above in concert?
- I wasn't losing many units due to my tech advantage - shouldn't that have helped?
- What else should I do - and how angry should I let my cities get before I allow peace?
- Once I get peace, how can I check what my war weariness is, and how low should I let it get before I go back to war?

2) City Specialization Again with city specialization:

- I got my GP farm, and sort of know how to use specialists to create the GP I need, except for engineers - forge gets me one eng specialists, factory (which comes WAY late in a GP farm!) for another 2, but by then it's really late - how do you generate Great Engineers in early game? I find I continually get pollution/happiness problems, coupled with low production making it tough to build things that will help these issues - are there work arounds?

- My understanding is that reguilar buildings, like specialists in a city, also generate GP points. Is there a tool tip/hint guide that can tell you which buildings contribute points to GP, and what type of GP points (and I mean normal buildings here; I know the wonder descriptions explicitly state the points they generate.)


- I understand that I'm not supposed to be building every improvement in every city (i.e. not every city needs a library). I'm not sure I completely understand why not - I can't get around the idea that everything in every city gets you flexibility so that, no wonder where the slider is (culture, science, gold) my city has bonuses. So:

-- If you have, say, a science city, but no science-type improvements and nothing else to build, what do you do? Build military units, accepting that they won't have the exp they'd have if I built them in my military city? Or build extra buildings? (assume early enough that I can't simply convert extra hammers to science/gold).

-- Is the issue city maintenance cost? I have no problem building everything in all cities and still running 70, 80, even 90 or 100 some games on the science slider - but my suspicion is I won't be able to do that on higher difficulty levels...

This ends the epic miniseries, "Mongolia's Struggles in the World". To the 3 of you that actually read this whole thing, my sincere thanks, and I hope you didn't hurt yourself when you fell asleep in the middle and hit your head on your desk.
To the rest who scrolled to the end to see if I had anything worthwhile to say (and were disappointed! ) I'll just say, happy holidays!

 

[Thedrin]

Jeffreyac:
- I got my GP farm, and sort of know how to use specialists to create the GP I need, except for engineers - forge gets me one eng specialists, factory (which comes WAY late in a GP farm!) for another 2, but by then it's really late - how do you generate Great Engineers in early game? I find I continually get pollution/happiness problems, coupled with low production making it tough to build things that will help these issues - are there work arounds?

I don't bother with engineer great people farms, though some people do. There is only one engineer specialist slot available before factories which comes with forge. If you do want a city dedicated to producing great engineers then you'll want to build wonders that provide engineer points such as the Pyramids, the Hanging Gardens, and the Hagia Sophia.

My understanding is that reguilar buildings, like specialists in a city, also generate GP points. Is there a tool tip/hint guide that can tell you which buildings contribute points to GP, and what type of GP points (and I mean normal buildings here; I know the wonder descriptions explicitly state the points they generate.)

The only buildings that I'm aware of that provide great people poiints are the Indian Mausoleum (+1 prophet point) and the Roman forum (+25% extra great people points).

Other buildings may allow you to create specialists but they do not directly provide you with great people points.

- I understand that I'm not supposed to be building every improvement in every city (i.e. not every city needs a library). I'm not sure I completely understand why not - I can't get around the idea that everything in every city gets you flexibility so that, no wonder where the slider is (culture, science, gold) my city has bonuses. So:

-- If you have, say, a science city, but no science-type improvements and nothing else to build, what do you do? Build military units, accepting that they won't have the exp they'd have if I built them in my military city? Or build extra buildings? (assume early enough that I can't simply convert extra hammers to science/gold).

I'll assume you mean that the science city has built all science boosting buildings and is looking to build something else. Build:
1) buildings that provide happiness or health if the city needs extra health and happiness or mayneed it in the future,
2) research - after you've researched alphabet you can turn your hammers directly into beakers.

Similarly for cities which are providing other benefits to your economy. A city designed to provide gold can build wealth after you've researched currency and a city producing culture can build culture after you've researched music.

 

[Nay]

1) War Weariness

WW, without going in-deep with the script mechanics works about as follows:

.) WW value =/= WW in city creen, its a value that runs through some formulas and then produces unhappy faces.
.) battles bring WW points
.) lost battles more so
.) statue of zeus doubles the (base) value of all WW occurences against the owning player
.) WW decreases a small amount every time
.) WW seems to be quicker gained at later ages
.) losing cities increase WW by a huge amount
.) nukes even more so.

rules to follow: strike quick and hard, dont loose too many units.

2) City Specialization

"how do you generate Great Engineers in early game? "
short answer: Pyramids, Forge.
long answer: wonders provide GPP of different kind automatically, without having to assign specialists. assigning specialists increases the total number, but "spoils" your pool. based on how many points of which kind of GP were invested in the pool when it tops out, chances are for the GP to emerge.
Keep in mind thats only a chance, not a guarantee. If only i had a 50% engineer for every 15% artist i got.....
Temple of artemis is very nice to have, since it gives 2 merchant points AND a free priest, thus adding 5 GPP to your Pool.
With Pyramids (2 engineer points) and forge/engineer (3 engineer points) that totals as follows:
2 Merchant points (20%)
3 priest points (30%)
5 Engineer points. (50%)

If you can live with 50%, thats the quickest way.


"My understanding is that reguilar buildings, like specialists in a city, also generate GP points."
Generally, no.
Theres exceptions, but the broad range doesnt.
many provide the option to include specialists though.



"- I understand that I'm not supposed to be building every improvement in every city"
Simply put: 1 library = 3 Axemen
if a city is constructed for hammer, it doesnt need a library.
Something that makes 2 beakers a turn wont benefit much from 25% bonus.
you´re better off with those 3 Axes.
if you "build" beakers, those dont run through the modifiers from buildings either, so a 20 hammer-city that builds science with a library makes 20 beakers, not 25.


"-- Is the issue city maintenance cost? I"
Buildings do NOT increase maintenance.
i think they did at some point in time (between civ 1 and 4) but not BtS.


"- but my suspicion is I won't be able to do that on higher difficulty levels..."
In higher levels (monarch+) its having too few units thats gonna kill you.
quickly at that.
Shakka doesnt care for libraries and grocers, he sends 40 swords with 15 catapults and you are done for.

 

[jeffreyac]

Ah, thanks - I guess my two weaknesses feed into each other then. I tried last game to have one city devoted to units; sounds like I should also get units from my "specialized" cities once they have nothing useful to build. Does this mean you typically have military-style buildings (barracks, etc) in your science and gold cities, to take advantage of free XP when these cities produce units for you?

Thanks for the input - it'll give me something to try next game!

 

[Verge]

Does this mean you typically have military-style buildings (barracks, etc) in your science and gold cities, to take advantage of free XP when these cities produce units for you?

I often don't bother. Instead I just use those green units as cannon fodder.

 

[Powerslave]

First, I'd like to discuss diplomacy. You can win the game without having a single warrior defending your cities, if you're a good enough diplomat. While this is an extreme example, it does illustrate that having a large standing army isn't always necessary. If all your competitors are Pleased or Friendly, you can often get away with a minimal defensive force. Watch out for AI civic changes, especially to Free Religion. Your former best friend may suddenly drop to Cautious and start planning an invasion!

Second, I'd like to address over-building. While having the shiniest empire in the world is quite fun, it's oftentimes easier to take wonders by force, rather than dedicating all those hammers to the Pyramids or Statue of Liberty. Make some axemen, cavalry, or tanks, and take out a few AIs builder-types who got obsessed with being shiny.

With regards to specialization, I'd just like to say that city specialization isn't mandatory. If you'd like, you can generalize your empire, so that most (if not all) of your cities are capable of working as commerce cities, unit cities, etc. Obviously, this works best if you engage in cottage spam. While working cottages doesn't give you many hammers, Universal Suffrage, levees, forges, and factories (with coal plants, if you can handle the unhealthiness hit) can have you pumping out tanks every other turn, even on epic. I don't think you need any more production than that. Granted, factories are a long time to wait for good production, but, with cottage spam, you're guaranteed to hit Assembly Line long before anyone else.

If you end up with a city that has lots of production and very little chance to generate commerce (many hills, with cows and wheat), then you'd obviously be a fool to build a market or library. I'm not advocating anything silly like that. I do build banks in any city that has 3-4 full-grown towns in its radius, however. If those towns are riverside, with Printing Press, Free Speech, and assuming you're Financial, that's easily 27 or 36 commerce, right there. I don't know about anyone else, but I often go to 100% science or 100% gold, depending on the situation and the need for money. Late in the game, I can generate 3000 - 4000 gold per turn at 100% gold, thanks to banks. I'm often overflowing in gold, thanks to holy cities, corporations, and banks. At that point, I can rush buy everything I'm making in every one of my cities, every turn, if I want. Banks are great.

While some of my strategies are somewhat unorthodox on CFC -- and I realize that cottage spam is a bit of an overplayed strategy in and of itself -- they really do work, if you give them a chance. I haven't spent much time trying to validate my play-style on Emperor or Immortal, so I obviously can't say that it works at high levels. At monarch, however, I can win the game by automating my workers and using the city governor on all of my non-core cities.

Hopefully, this gives people some ideas on alternate strategies, if they're confused by the concept of city specialization or they want to try something new. I've drifted into some oddball playstyles, given my boredom with my "standard" strategies. Most of them involve cottage spam, as I was initially an SE fanatic. I still use a SE occasionally, but I'm embarrassed to say that I'm not very good at it any more!

 

[jeffreyac]

Thanks for the thoughts! I've been working on my economy skills, and been having some luck running CE for most of the game, until late when I generally farm over those cottages in a quest for bigger cities (I know, I know, but it bugs me on some level to see a city not growing, even if it's upper-20's in size! Call it my own 'oddball playstyle' )

The only time I've messed with specialists (or, at least. payed attention to them) have been my recent attempts to play with a GP farm, and it seems pretty cool. I'll have to keep messing around with it, and see if I can get a little better it...

Oh, and for the record? The above game did result in a domination win (my first ever!) in late 1800's (marathon), yielding 71K points or so. Not much to you veterans, I know, but considering my highest normalized score before (mostly for late game science or culture wins) was in the 8k range, I was shocked!

 

[Verge]

I've been working on my economy skills, and been having some luck running CE for most of the game, until late when I generally farm over those cottages in a quest for bigger cities

!


for the destructions of mature towns.

If you really want to see cities grow, just incorporate Sid's Sushi in you food-heavy cities and watch them skyrocket.

 

[Nay]

Ah, thanks - I guess my two weaknesses feed into each other then. I tried last game to have one city devoted to units; sounds like I should also get units from my "specialized" cities once they have nothing useful to build. Does this mean you typically have military-style buildings (barracks, etc) in your science and gold cities, to take advantage of free XP when these cities produce units for you?

Thanks for the input - it'll give me something to try next game!

Peace

I have barracks in each of my cities. Each.
Then theres 2-3 dedicated Cavalry cities who get stables to provide 5XP cav-units.
Those without stables will (in time) get Generals settled in them, to provide those 5XP for non-cav units. (i seldom run vassalage, Buerocracy suits me better).

Another approach is a single super-XP city who gets all the generals you ever get, typically your capital with Buerocracy, but this leaves the other cities at 3XP, which aint to good.
I prefer double-promoted units from everywhere. 2 double garrisson archers are better than one tripple and one single imo.

Preparation

The wise man, in peace, prepares for war.

In times of impending conflict, when the war-machinery starts to run, everything else is laid aside. Buildings in process are slaved without mercy (or regret) to provide capacity for units. Low production cities with a decent amount of food will feel the whip as soon as the units can be finished with 2 population.

Heroic Epic is a must-have. More units > better units.
You can take down everything with warriors if you bring enough of them. Keep this in mind.

Every Army needs at least a single-medic, if you can a double-medic.

Total War
Never use units as cannonfodder just for the sake of it.
If you need fodder, you didnt bring enough siegeworks. Have sufficient catapults/trebuchets to bring down the walls in 3 turns at most. Keep in mind that every turn of bombardement is 1 defender slaved, and more pile in from other cities. The only thing that needs to be sacrificed are siege engines. a double (tripple) collateral catapult might not seriously harm the topdefender, but cripple everything behind him. the double-cityraider-catapult (daiderpult) is next in, delivering pain to the topdefender, again harming the rest, but knocking him down sufficiently to provide the collaiderpult (collateral-city raider) to bring all else to near death. Then the stormtroopers rush in without loosing men.

Without proper siegeworks, your men will break upon the walls, but eventually win over. But you will suffer horrible casualties, which in turn translate into unholy War Weariness. Siege units prevent unhappy citizens.

Take what you can, keep what you want, burn the rest.

Such is the way of warfare.
It depends heavily on promotions, true.
But in the end, strength always lies in numbers.
Find your way between these two and you will win many battles.
Neglect one, and you will fail.

 

[TommyTankRush]

Nothing wrong with taking time to consolidate after a war. Build up the conquered regions. Then go to war again, rinse and repeat.

I have barracks in ALL my cities - they're cheap, and when you have nothing else to build, you can crank out seige units. Its a bit of a waste having heavily promoted seige units because when the enemy is battered enough to ensure your seige machinery survives the fight, its probably weak enough to be killed by your vanguard.

 

[jeffreyac]

Nay - thanks! As I read that one, I think I've discovered another weakness in my strategy, in that I underuse siege weapons... I found myself thinking of my tactics and realize I've been fighting without them (or with only a token force) resulting in extremely high casualties when I attack. Guess it's time to back to tactics school and revisit Combined Arms!

Oh, and Verge - yeah, I know, and actually I typically use Sid's Sushi (or Cereal Mills, if I have lots of farmable food and limited seafood) combined with Creative Construction or civilized Jewelers. Part of my mistakes are not planning my cities well enough in advance, anyway, resulting in some really poor choices for terrain, improvements, etc, and then late game I'm typically either so powerful it doesn't matter anymore, or already dead... At any rate, yeah, farming over my towns is something I need to learn to stop!

 

[Spaced out]

The whole farming over towns is a very bad idea. You only make your cities weaker if they are at that level.

The specialists you gain from the farm are weaker than the towns they replace. Also the increases city size means higher maintenance cost for that city. Sure you get a slight boost to trade routes for each pop point over 10 but is not that much. Larger cities are closer to their happy/health caps. This means when you delcare war that size 35 city will get unhappy long before the size 22.

2 military productions is what i go for, 1 inland with lots of hammers and 1 on the coast with a small amount of water tiles. I play standard maps.

Building wealth/research is unaffected by banks and libraries but is affected by forges. Even your town-poor cities can help and they don't need to waste time on useless buildings.