Long wait times between turns

[Milaga]

First off let me say I really enjoy Fall Further. There are a lot of things about it I think are excellent changes to the FfH mod. I've played it off and on since 0.22 but since both it and FfH itself have been in flux so much I haven't had a lot of time to dedicate to it. With FfH 0.40 and FF 0.50 things began calming down so I've been giving it a new try.

One problem that has always ground my games to a halt has been the unbearable wait time between turns. In fact I've yet to win a game since I like to play on larger maps and usually by turn 300 I'm looking at a 30 second wait time between turns. My computer isn't the newest, an Athlon 64 3000+. But I've never seen more than 10 second sustained wait times in FfH or BtS even with massive 20 civ maps.

I know some changes have been made to reduce this, but I'm still seeing unbearable wait times. If anyone has any advice on how to ensure that even in long games it doesn't get brought to a crawl would be most helpful.

Also, I'm really enjoying this current game I'm in. I don't want to pop the WB open to see if I can find anything wrong. Not only since I doubt I'd know it when I see it but because I don't want to spoil the game for myself. Can anyone with the knowhow take a look and let me know if they see anything that stands out as slagging the game?

Attachment is from FfH 041Z FF 050L Malakim+ 020.

Saving the game is a longshot I know. But I've started so many FF games I can't finish. I'm really not excited about starting a new one until I know I can finish it.

 

[JimMorrison]

I'm running an old Pentium 805D atm, and on Large maps in the later game I am looking at 1min+ processing times. I don't think it's all THAT excessive - I wish it could be faster, but unless the FF team figures out how to make Civ4 utilize multiple cores, then it's just something we have to deal with.

I just play in windowed mode and surf forums and stuff during turn processing.

 

[Sarisin]

I can only sympathize with you, and, unfortunately don't have any suggestions.

I've given up on the Huge maps. My games get bogged down at that size whether I'm playing FFH, FF or Orbis.

The time between turns is excessive, but worse is the CTDs and MAF that seem to always come - I play at Epic speed and the game speed makes a difference.

I would rather sacrifice map size than game speed, so I dropped down to Large maps and don't have any problems in FFH or Orbis.

However, my last FF game with patch L crapped out with constant CTDs around turn 650. I'm hoping it was one of a kind.

One thing that I have found speeds up time in between turns is to shut off the Show Friendly and Enemy Moves option. I prefer to have the Show Enemy Moves option on especially, but if you are at war with multiple civs who have many units, this can really add to the time between turns.

One thing I've never understood in this game series going way back is why so many AI units HAVE to move each turn. You often see units just spinning around in circles and ending up where they started. Why don't they just stay put? I think this adds to the time between turns.

 

[Milaga]

I wish I could play on huge maps, but even large maps get to be unbearable. I really don't like playing on anything smaller than large as it eliminates most of the mid-game surprises.

I've got all show-movement off. But you might be right. Some of the civs already have around 50 unit stacks in some of their cities. If each of those units was deciding what to do each turn, in each city, that would definitely slow things down.

 

[WarKirby]

I've long since learned to live with it. It runs fine when you're actually doing stuff, the time between turns is a waiting period anyway.

I use it to go to the bathroom, get a drink, lift weights, pet the dog, discuss strategies with co-players, etc.

Civilization is a game for the patient.


In the hotseat game I playing with my cousin, we have wait times of close to a minute between turns. I don't find that a problem.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

One thing I've never understood in this game series going way back is why so many AI units HAVE to move each turn. You often see units just spinning around in circles and ending up where they started. Why don't they just stay put? I think this adds to the time between turns.

yeah, I have that very same feeling. it kinda forces you to toggle off show enemy/friendly moves too, since it gets boring really fast when you have to watch the AI move their units one at a time.

 

[Honor]

I heard getting more RAM will make it run faster. Didn't test this, though.

 

[civ_king]

concerning multiple cores, I think we are screwed, but I have a fast comp so I shouldn't be complaining

I asked everyone why it is taking 10 whole seconds between turn and they pointed out that it was 29 civs, huge and late game... I need to go hug my computer

 

[Sarisin]

I heard getting more RAM will make it run faster. Didn't test this, though.

I went from single core to duo, 2gb RAM to 4, video card with 256 mb to 512 mb and I didn't see any difference when I tried to play Huge maps. Same problems with long times between turns, CTDs, and MAFs.

Most games with Large maps run OK, though. It really depends on how fast the AI fills the map.

 

[Iceciro]

I'm sure it'd help if all the AIs wouldn't move their stacks of hundreds of swordsmen three miles in a random direction every turn, yes.

 

[Jean Elcard]

It's probably not the moving itself that is causing the long wait times, but all the AI calculations needed to decide, whether to move or to stay put.

 

[scutarii]

summoning hyborem and basium guarantees longer pauses between turns.

Tested: it is not as much as capability of your PC but how complicated are issues for AI.

 

[JimMorrison]

It's probably not the moving itself that is causing the long wait times, but all the AI calculations needed to decide, whether to move or to stay put.

Also, ironically, it's the linear method of decision making, as opposed to a "more CPU intensive" parallel method.

Basically what you often see is a local area with 1 extra unit, which decides to move to reinforce a different city. When it arrives, a unit in that city is selected, it determines that city has more defense than the first, and then sends an identical unit back. This behavior continues ad nauseum until the AI is out of units that can still move.

Of course, that's just the defenders..... every unit/stack that has been sent outside of a city, for some reason absolutely has to move every turn, or the AI is forced to commit seppuku - regardless of whether they have anyplace better to be this turn.

We really need AIs that can think ahead, that can say things like "okay, in 3 turns I will have enough units out to launch this attack, so unless barbarians show up or something, everyone can just chill for 3 turns". But since the AI evaluates war on a turn-by-turn basis (correct me if I'm wrong!), then that would seem impossible to synthesize under this engine.

 

[xienwolf]

Yes, right now the AI completely re-evaluates almost everything it is doing every turn. Tech choices and what it is currently building are about the only exceptions, but even those get re-evaluated periodically. Some units plan longterm, but generally only as long as it takes to travel to an area. Some units consider what other units have declared intentions of (generally only workers and city defenders, but not often enough).

 

[Sarisin]

Would having a cap on the number of units you or, especially, the AI can build help this at all? Many RTS games force you to plan out your army because you can only build so many units instead of just spamming many, many units. If you want to build that Paladin, you will have to let go that Veteran Horseman.

Wouldn't it speed up the game if there were less units to make these decisions each turn?

Could you have an option that would limit the number of units? 100, 200, 500. I know some AI civs would still bump up against the limit.

I just find in my games, even on Large maps, as soon as the AI fills the territory and starts churning out the units, the game slows down, the CTDs and MAFs are more likely.

Would less units in the game help?

I believe the barbs have a cap on number of units they can have, why not all civs?

 

[Jean Elcard]

A unit cap would certainly reduce the between turn times dramatically, but it would also lead to a new level of complexity concerning the AI. We would have to add a lot of code to make it consider this hard cap in its decision making.

 

[Sarisin]

Yes, I was afraid of that as I am not knowledgeable on programming matters.

Again, I would suggest it be an option so those who play smaller, shorter games could still have plenty of units if they wanted. I just think it would be a boon to those of us who like to play the Huge maps at Epic or Marathon speed with lots of civs in the mix.

Also, I think it would add an interesting game element as to the makeup and amount of your units instead of just spamming away brainlessly as the AI does now.

I realize spamming loads of units is one of the few ways the AI can keep up now and restricting them would likely make them weaker.

Isn't there a cap in the game on barb units now?

 

[Milaga]

Been mostly away from the forums for a while ... been busy in the real life and also the most recent version of Dwarf Fortress has enticed me with it's wicked ways.

I just wanted to bring this back to the limelight. I'm not here to complain, only elicit ideas on how this can be improved. What puzzles me most is why FF is so much slower than FfH. Do civs create more units to counter the greater number of Barbarian units? I don't think the barbarians are the major factor here since I've played games without barbarians and there didn't seem to be a speed difference.

Has anyone noticed if the exisantce of certain civs slow it down?

Also, for reference, there was another thread posted about this after mine. But for purely megalomaniacal purposes I decided to necro my own post.

One of these days I'll actually have enough free time to offer my services as well. I hope.

 

[xienwolf]

I trained the AI to maintain more defenders, so it does have more units in general. Plus the main Barbarian force (Orcs) is still limited to the same quantity of units as it is in FfH, and there are 2 other factions in addition to that pumping up the system, so basically you hare playing all games with 2 extra players. And on top of that some of the new mechanics require extra checks and loops in relatively inopportune locations for speed consideration, so the time will naturally be longer than in FfH. Though ideally there are ways we can enhance the speed anyway and keep the new toys handy and fully functional. I know of quite a few already in fact which would have a (potentially) alarming impact on overall speed, but lack the time to sit down for the relatively massive code rewrite which each would entail, let alone fixing all the bugs I am bound to cause during the rewrite and all the ones currently in the code from previous work.

 

[Iceciro]

Not intending to offend, Xien, but even on my relatively powerful system (3.2ghz processor, 8gb ram) the turns into the 400s have about a 30s lag. I like the shiny feautres too (and am jealous of the coding) but at some point isn't it better to focus on improving what exists to the maximum before adding more?

Though if we're talking like a three month long code rewrite I suppose most people in the forums wouldn't be patient with that for a speed upgrade... hmmm.