longhouse (from the manual)

[Schuesseled]

Unique Building

Longhouse

Replaces Workshop.

IIRC no one else had discovered what it replaced.

 

[Kordanor]

IIRC no one else had discovered what it replaced.

Yep, nice to know. So you get 1 additional hammer from each worked forest instead of 20% production for everything.

That again means that the longhouse will actually be worse than the normal building later game play or even in some cities right from the beginning.

If you have no decent wood in your starting location as Iroquois you aren't only be able to use your Unique Building but you are totally screwed.

 

[4phun]

IIRC no one else had discovered what it replaced.

Page 215 describes the Workshop if that is what you are asking.

There are eight pages in the manual that mention or discuss the workshop
72
160
164
172
182
215
218
222

There are seven pages for the longhouse
160
164
166
182
215
218
222

Metal Casting also unlocks the forge but you didn't ask about that.

I moved a copy of the manual into iBooks on the iPad which makes searching and reading easier. I expect it will be nice too when playing the game and I want to check some obscure point I don't remember. I do not want to use the in game manual.

 

[Kordanor]

Yep, nice to know. So you get 1 additional hammer from each worked forest instead of 20% production for everything.

That again means that the longhouse will actually be worse than the normal building later game play or even in some cities right from the beginning.

If you have no decent wood in your starting location as Iroquois you aren't only be able to use your Unique Building but you are totally screwed.

I need to correct what I said before.
The workshop only grants 20% for buildings.
This basically means that the longhouse is better for military production. But I will try to make up a theoretical situation in some minutes.

Still - Iroquois are the Civ for the most vulnerability for a bad starting point.
Lets assume we have no or very rare forest:
-No benefit of special unit
-No benefit of unique ability
-Penality for unique building

 

[stealth_nsk]

Still - Iroquois are the Civ for the most vulnerability for a bad starting point.

If you don't disable starting bias Iroquois will always start in forests, England - on the coast, etc. I don't see any reasons to disable them for both SP and MP.

 

[Alsark]

If you don't disable starting bias Iroquois will always start in forests, England - on the coast, etc. I don't see any reasons to disable them for both SP and MP.

Oh, is there a game option for that? That's cool. Hopefully that doesn't mean Russia gets stuck by tundra and Arabia by desert every time, though.


The Iroquois didn't really appeal to me anyway. Now, even less so.

 

[snipperrabbit!!]

The longhouse cost 80 instead of 100 for the workshop.

 

[12agnar0k]

I actually like the longhouse replacement, its not my favourite Ub though, that would be the floating gardens because I used to like my old lake strategy, settling on a coast with lakes near you, each one giving 3 food and 2 gold with lighthouse, with floating gardens they will give 5 food +2 gold, which makes them epic tiles, now if that ain't something uber cool, I don't know what is . In addition the floating gardens still gives the water mill bonus and +15% additional food. Its ace.

 

[Schuesseled]

Page 215 describes the Workshop if that is what you are asking.

There are eight pages in the manual that mention or discuss the workshop
72
160
164
172
182
215
218
222

There are seven pages for the longhouse
160
164
166
182
215
218
222

Metal Casting also unlocks the forge but you didn't ask about that.

I moved a copy of the manual into iBooks on the iPad which makes searching and reading easier. I expect it will be nice too when playing the game and I want to check some obscure point I don't remember. I do not want to use the in game manual.

I wasn't asking anything, everyone else who has ever mentioned the longhouse has never mentioned what it replaces, because know one knew, now we do. It replaces the workshop.

 

[12agnar0k]

I wasn't asking anything, everyone else who has ever mentioned the longhouse has never mentioned what it replaces, because know one knew, now we do. It replaces the workshop.

I figured that it replaced the forge or workshop, which ever one was first.

 

[stealth_nsk]

Oh, is there a game option for that? That's cool. Hopefully that doesn't mean Russia gets stuck by tundra and Arabia by desert every time, though

The feature was mentioned before, I believe, but since the manual misses advanced settings list, there's no confirmation. We'll see.

 

[Kordanor]

Well, if this is an option to disable I would assume its enabled in the escapist video:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/art.../reviews/previews/8100-Preview-Civilization-V

Now, lets see what position he has:

Hill||Wood+Dear
Coast(Fishes probably)||Plains/City||Wood
Coast||Wood+Dye

Adjacent he got 1 Wood and 1 Wood+Dye

So for the beginning he got 3 Woods. One of these he will chop down due to the Dye.
Later he will have 2 more, one of which he will chop down
making it 3 total.

Now lets see how the Traits work out:
Special Unit: Most probably useless for defending, wont profit from the wood much in this case (most probably will hardly profit from it ever) as youneed one wood to defend, and one wood where the enemy is which you want to slay.
Wood-Road: Will maybe work if he places another city to the east. Check Video at 2:47 where you can also see that he chopped down the two woods for the Plantation and one additional one to place a farm (due to the river).

Longhouse: Here it becomes really complicated to foresee what you will build and research.
For Longhouses you need Metal Casting, which is one of the first mediaval techs.
I'd assume that the city already got several additional tiles and is at size 7 (this is what he has in the vid when he is researching the compass).
So I guess he is working on maybe following spots (first without boni):
1. Forest with deer (1 Production)
2,3. Dye (0 production)
4 Elephant (0 production)
5 Fishes
6,7 might be both wood, but in the case he either found Iron or Horses (both not together with wood) it will even less wood, but lets assume its both wood and he gets +2 Out of 2 additional wood

Well, that makes the following:
3 Wood
3 Production + 2 base production of city = 5 Production

Building a unit of that techlevel like a swordsman/mohawk (costs: 80) and a building of that tech like a colisseum (150)

An iroquois (with longhouse) will have 3 additional production in both cases (8 total), needing 10 turns for the mohawk and 19 turns for the coliseum.

Any other civ will take use of the hill, placing a mine on it. Losing 1 food but gaining two production compared to the forest, making it a total of 7 production, needing 12 turns for the swordsman but needing 20% less for the coliseum which is 120, needing 18 turns for the coliseum.

In addition any other civ would have lost 4 additional turns for the 20 additional costs of the work shop (100) instead of the longhouse (80).

Now lets combine this with lumbermills:

An iroquois (with longhouse) will have 3 additional production in both cases (3*3+2=11 total), needing 8 turns for the mohawk (80) and 14 turns for the coliseum (150).

Any other civ will have 9 production (2*2 wood, 2 base, 3 mine), needing 9 turns for the swordsman (80) but needing 13 turns for the coliseum (120).

Conclusion:
Iroquois will probably be beasts if put into a deep forests. While they will suffer as soon the production is based on anything different. A city using farms on the one hand and mines on the other wont be very efficient for them.

 

[warpstorm]

I do not want to use the in game manual.

Why not? I'd assume the Civilopedia is more up to date than the manual in your iPad.

 

[Kordanor]

Lets add in the capital for the numbers in the main city:

Iroquois: 3*2+2+2=10
Mohawk: 80, 8 Turns
Coliseum: 150, 15 Turns

Others: 2*1+2+2+3=9
Swordsman: 80, 9 Turns
Coliseum: 120, 14 Turns

With Lumbermill:

Iroquois: 3*3+2+2=13
Mohawk: 80, 7 Turns
Coliseum: 150, 12 Turns

Others: 2*2+2+2+3=11
Swordsman: 80, 8 Turns
Coliseum: 120, 11 Turns

To the I-Pad Discussion: Take a second screen on your PC!

 

[KrikkitTwo]

That also assumes there aren't mistakes in the manual

Like Egypt's temple replacement not giving an Artist Slot
or
Siam's University replacement not giving the Jungle Science bonus

or
Iroquois Longhouse not giving +20% to buildings

 

[Kordanor]

That also assumes there aren't mistakes in the manual

Like Egypt's temple replacement not giving an Artist Slot
or
Siam's University replacement not giving the Jungle Science bonus

or
Iroquois Longhouse not giving +20% to buildings

The temple replacement makes sense and seems fair.
The Wat isn't too bad either but disables the option to get additional science from jungle spots (which are still kinda bad with 2 food or if possible on hill with 1 food 1 production with no way to be upgraded).

I actually doubt all these are errata.

 

[Kordanor]

I am still waiting for the european release.
Can anyone say for sure now whether the longhouse does not give 20% to buildings?

In addition: Any experience with the Iroquois starting location regarding to forests?

 

[iWant921nooow]

hmm.. just tried the iroquois. i first (for some reason) thought that the longhouse gave 1 extra hammer from every forest in city radius. for example, if u have 3 forests in city radius the longhouse wud give 3 extra hammer to the city. so i went for animalhusbandry then calendar and then straight to metal casting. man was i disappointed when i built my longhouse

has anyone tried them and can tell me some nice strategy with them? cuz i cant come up with anything...

 

[starang24]

The longhouse gives an extra hammer to each forest tile worked, not to the city itself. It works extremely well with lumber mills built on the forest tiles. I find it a very strong building, and am having my best game yet as the Iroquois. I successfully defended an attack against Napolean (the best AI in my opinion), Siam, and India. Napolean had his dreaded musketeers, but I had longswordsman upgraded from Mohawk Warriors in forest tiles backed by trebuchets. I do not find the UA all that remarkable, since it is only within your territory, but it has its uses. I would prefer that it was all forest tiles your units could move through. DO NOT chop any forests as the Iroquois, as they are your best asset.

My advice is to build as many Mohawk Warriors as you have iron, and then keep upgrading them. There should be plenty of forest tiles available to take advantage of their special ability. Also, spam longhouses and lumber mills in cities with 3 or more forest tiles.

 

[shamsael]

I'm playing a game as iroquois right now. I have to see the longhouse does not get less useful as the game progresses. There are simply too many reasons to leave your forests standing. Right now I have about 60 gold from trade routes and I'm only spending 5 gold on roads to link up the few spots where the trees didn't connect. Not to mention that, my cavalry can go from one end of my empire to the other in 3 turns.

My starting area was a peninsula that had a lot of forests scattered about, with a hilly region to the north (germany) and a to the west a choke point leading into a huge area covered in forests. I put up three cities in my starting area, then rushed the forest area to the west to capture the city states there and establish some cities before the AIs could cut down the trees.

I'm combining the iroquois special ability, the mohawk warrior trait (which is preserved when you upgrade the unit) and the +33% home-field advantage in the tradition tree to maintain a super-bad-ass defense army.

This is my first game on King difficulty and none of the other civs have been able to make me lose ground in the west where all the trees are. Germany captured a city off of me once, but I hit them back hard, grabbing all of their iron cities and leaving them pretty much harmless.

tl;dr version: Iroquoise are pretty good, and the longhouse is awesome, you just have to be aggressive early on to get those forested areas before they get cut down.