Lords of the Rising Sun (Pre-NES)

[kkmo]

To Anonymoose: Of course I made this inclusive, because I want your and everyone else's input.

Honestly, I can't fairly play in a game where the mod tailors the outcomes ex post facto to suit one player's complaints without consulting all parties involved.

I'm a little bit disappointed by this comment, Thlayli. I have not said I am changing it yet - only that I came to those conclusions based on the information I had at that point. The reason I posted it in this thread was to consult all parties involved, and hear the opinions of not only these two players, but other players - since as Espoir pointed out - everyone could potentially be effected. I am not tailoring an update to any one.

I think in these cases, the original update should hold more weight. It is not a simple statistical error that can be fixed, so changing it completely would be unfair to everyone who read the original update and had already conjured plans based on such.

I think these are wise words.

Anonymoose, I appreciate your honest reply. I hope you do not think less of me, but instead are grateful that I wished to present it here for discussion - and I did not act unilaterally.

-

Birdjaguar, I think you should take the outcome as it is. I personally like the narrative and story about the Satomi's betrayal, and was initially upset at having to change it. But I thought about it because I assumed that perhaps Anonymoose had somehow taken advantage of me (not necessarily intentionally). It appears that he did not and, as happened in the update, your scouts noticed the army but the army arrived before a Hojo army could reach the south. It makes for an interesting situation, in my opinion! And while no formal deal of a passage through your terrain was signed, I think the diplomacy present is enough to convince me.

Regardless of the evidence, I think changing the update at this point would not only be troublesome but also irresponsible. I like the update as is, and I think I myself need to be a bit more confident and dictatorial with my modding. As such, so everyone can have a good time, I take full responsibility for this minor hiccup, and I hope that everyone can get along OOC - even if they are in a bloody war IC. And I hope their faith in me has not disappeared. Sorry!

 

[Thlayli]

I apologize for my harsh words. It just seemed to me like you made the decision to change the update without consulting Anonymoose and myself, or considering the various secondary effects of making that change.

Frankly, I wouldn't be that emotionally invested in this NES if it weren't already showing promise.

 

[kkmo]

It's no problem. My wording was a bit confusing. I made some initial conclusions from only hearing one side of the story, but I also definitely sought verification/input from all parties involved. I hope you guys will keep everything together while I'm gone.

If there is any pressing diplo that needs resolving before the next update, I can extend the orders due date a little bit.

 

[Anonymoose]

Think less of you? No way! It's only a game. I think the tone of my posts was ruined by the mood I was in. I had just gotten off of work and had not had a shower yet, so I still felt like a manual laborer, not a traitorous Japanese wretch of a commander.

 

[ChiefDesigner]

I think there is a dictum that you should adopt, kkmo:

"OBEY, OR SUFFER."

 

[Birdjaguar]

For the record, here is how it all started:

Well, very nice update!

[Here I asked several questions unrelated to the update, and then I added the following:]

BTW, I am quite surprised that my generals would have allowed the satomi to walk in with an army when we had no alliance and that muddy weather would have delayed a single Hojo messenger, but not the invading army of 3000 men. But whatever.

- Muddy weather delayed everyone. Just that, by the time the messenger reached someone and told them, your army was involved in the north: it was too late. Your messenger obviously reached Edo first, but it was too late. This was in Spring, and your army had already marched up north completely - your blunder here was not leaving any garrison in your border castles.

- No alliance, but you had agreed for Satomi troops to march through your territory to assist you - which is what they seemed to be doing until it was too late. What generals do you speak of, by the way? Your whole army was ordered north.

My response: Passage across Hojo land? Not at all. We had no such agreement. There was certainly nothing in my orders giving him passage. If you were told that by Anonymoose, he lied to you to gain an advantage. It is one thing to deceive me with his pms, that is part of the game, but if he told you that I gave him safe passage and then used that lie in his orders, then I have a serious problem. It opens the door on total chaos for you.

[/quote]

That is a whole different matter! I will look into it. That is quite severe. We have a problem...

(By the way, I was asking if my other answers to your questions made sense and if you adequately understood them - as I was rushing in answering them and I hope I was clear enough.)

Well, I've said something to the whole forum because being taken advantage of is quite discouraging to me. I hope it can be solved. I presented my own solution in the thread for how to change the update accordingly.

Then in kkmo's public post he explained how he saw the situation and his fix.

 

[Birdjaguar]

This is ridiculous. I quit if the original update isn't immediately restored.

I'm seriously insulted that you've acted in such a shameful manner, Birdjaguar. You were betrayed and unprepared for it. In your orders, you left no contingencies for the reinforcement of Edo according to all accounts. The narrative as originally expressed in the update is perfectly plausible, especially since the Satomi did fool you with a false offer of alliance, which you believed.

Furthermore, despite the Mod's urging of players to accept the decisions set forward in the update, you did exactly the contrary, using your influence OOC to change an update where you lost. I'm shocked, appalled, and at a loss for further words.

Honestly, I can't fairly play in a game where the mod tailors the outcomes ex post facto to suit one player's complaints without consulting all parties involved. I should demand that the Hojo-Uesugi battles in Shimotsuke should go FAR better for the Uesugi since Hojo troops have been magically diverted from that province to reinforcing Edo.

Well in reality the only truth in your post is that I did not have any contingencies for explicitly supporting Edo. My complaint was that anonymoose seemed to have told kkmo that Satomi had permission to enter/cross Hojo land when none was in place. In the game, my border guards would certainly know that no access had been granted and my orders clearly stated that I did not trust Satomi. That was the issue I raised. kkmo's next step was to post the problem here with his solution. What he posted as a solution is not any of my doing. The solution I offered him in public and in private was to confirm deal with both parties before he assumes that they are real.

You are trying to cast me as strong arming kkmo into changing the update to suit my purposes. That is just not true. I never suggested that he make any changes to the update.

On a side note, while I did not like losing Edo to Satomi, I did not consider the turn a losing one at all. I was actually quite pleased with how things went. I beat your armies in a straight up fight and ended the turn with more koku than I started with.

Once this gets resolved, I will get back to my diplo and orders.

 

[Thlayli]

I believe it is resolved. The original update is how it happened.

 

[Birdjaguar]

So noted.

 

[Anonymoose]

I've almost finished orders, but I have to go to work soon and won't get off until tomorrow morning... at which point I'll pass out and won't wake up until tomorrow afternoon. Expect orders then! Hopefully at such a point all of the diplomacy and planning will be complete.

 

[kkmo]

Well, hello everyone!

I haven't checked PMs yet and probably won't get a chance to for a day or two. July is a busy month for me.

I have thoroughly enjoyed reading the IC thread. Excellent stuff in there. I will make sure to give out some story bonuses next update, as Thlayli reminded me. I will extend the orders due date by a few days. Very much looking forward to getting back into the swing of things.

 

[T_F]

When's the new due date?

 

[Ninja Dude]

He said he is gonna push back the due date, so that should help.

 

[Anonymoose]

Well knowing that I have more time, I may send you revised orders, kkmo. I could not have known you'd extend it, sorry.

 

[Kraznaya]

Well, hello everyone!

I haven't checked PMs yet and probably won't get a chance to for a day or two. July is a busy month for me.

I have thoroughly enjoyed reading the IC thread. Excellent stuff in there. I will make sure to give out some story bonuses next update, as Thlayli reminded me. I will extend the orders due date by a few days. Very much looking forward to getting back into the swing of things.

Much appreciated. Would've rushed orders today but I'll keep working on some ideas I have.

 

[Adrogans]

Thank god orders deadline is extended, lots of coordination to do.

 

[kkmo]

The new due date is Saturday, July 30. That should give you all plenty of time to plot and scheme to your heart's content. Feel free to send updated orders if you have already sent some.

 

[Heraclius49]

The new due date is Saturday, July 30. That should give you all plenty of time to plot and scheme to your heart's content. Feel free to send updated orders if you have already sent some.

Thank You! I would have never have made the deadline otherwise!

edit: Wow I just looked at the date (aside from Saturday). That is quite a while from now.

 

[Kraznaya]

The new due date is Saturday, July 30. That should give you all plenty of time to plot and scheme to your heart's content. Feel free to send updated orders if you have already sent some.

Wow... I can totally understand if you're busy, but that's a bit extreme, considering that'll be a 3 week period between orders. Any chance of moving it up to this weekend?

 

[kkmo]

Wow... I can totally understand if you're busy, but that's a bit extreme, considering that'll be a 3 week period between orders. Any chance of moving it up to this weekend?

I thought about making it this weekend, but I have to go out of town again until the 29th starting this weekend, and I know I wouldn't be able to finish an update in just 1 or 2 days. This trip is actually last-minute and rather unexpected, but I can't avoid it.