Low culture output while going for Science Victory?

[MasochistAngel]

Hi, everyone! Bought Civ5 Complete recently, and after an Aztec cultural victory (my first!) on Prince, I decided to move up to Emperor, since it seemed too easy.

I'd playing Babylon wide, and am gunning for a SV. Except I keep replaying the first 100 turns to nail down my foundation, and my culture production seems really low.. Maybe it's all the MP games on Quick with friends, but 20-30 turns at 4 cities, let alone that or more at 7-8 just seems ridiculous..

Cities: http://gyazo.com/d3670492482a984815571067e1e47670
Social Policies: http://gyazo.com/1c57091b8ff83e023f38239ea6064b3d
Science: http://gyazo.com/eeb657ed9992af18fe7cf5f260a31c3f
Religion: http://gyazo.com/23f71ab9bd0cd06722ed7418bfca8353

Gold hasn't been an issue, despite that negative GPT, it only showed up this turn and I just have to adjust pop assignments. Resources are set to abundant and as you can see, I prioritize improving them first.

Build order tends to be:
Capital: Scout, Scout, Shrine, Monument, Library, Warrior, Caravan, Granary...
Everywhere else: Monument, Shrine, Library, Granary, Market, University, Garden, Ampitheater..

Tech Order: Pottery > AH or Mining > Writing > Trapping/Calender if relevant...in this case, before Writing > Masonry > Beeline Theology > Construction > Beeline Guilds > Education...and from there, either Astronomy, Acoustics, or Printing Press, depending on if I think I can get SC or not.

This time I hit NC around 115 (3 cities), and Education around 125-130. I'm never leading in literacy until maybe the Industrial era, and then only for a few turns. Which feels like a red flag, given my gunning for a SV. Cultural generation seemed so easy with Monty 4-city Tradition, but Liberty, while it seems more flexible, seem like it's...just not as good. Does it take longer to hit full-speed than Tradition? Am I just not used to Standard's game speed? Or am I doing something really wrong?

I'd appreciate the help.

 

[Atinuviel]

Some of the more obvious things:

Why are your capital's population so low? Even considering that you're going Liberty, it should be hitting 10 population easy, preferably ~15-20 pop on turn 158. You have 5 cities with only one at 10. You have 25 happiness, so grow your cities. Population is the engine of your civilization: more pop = more science and more usable slot = more gold and production.

Your culture isn't technically too bad. I don't know if you've built your guilds yet, but it'll help with your culture. You neglected to finish out the last policy for Liberty, which drives down the cost your culture from additional cities, and also costs your the finisher that grants a free great person. Is that 25% gold from temple REALLY that good?

A good beaker rule I like to follow is try to hit 100 beakers at turn 100, ~450 beakers at turn 150, and ~800 beakers at turn 200. It roughly corresponds to when you unlock the next science tech, give or take ten or so turns. (ie. university built by T100, Public school by T150, and Research Lab by T200) If you're not hitting that, then you're either 1) Not growing enough, 2) Not focusing/beelining the right science tech, or 3) Sacrificing science for some other type of victory, such as Culture or Domination Techs such that you should have a demonstrable advantage at this point of the game.

No need to put a warrior into your build order. Your early game Barb hunting and defensive units should consist of mostly Ranged units with whatever melee you can scrounge together: scouts, your first warrior, or gifts from city-states.

 

[sixty4half]

A good beaker rule I like to follow is try to hit 100 beakers at turn 100, ~450 beakers at turn 150, and ~800 beakers at turn 200. It roughly corresponds to when you unlock the next science tech, give or take ten or so turns. (ie. university built by T100, Public school by T150, and Research Lab by T200) If you're not hitting that, then you're either 1) Not growing enough, 2) Not focusing/beelining the right science tech, or 3) Sacrificing science for some other type of victory, such as Culture or Domination Techs such that you should have a demonstrable advantage at this point of the game.

IDK if these goals are realistic on Prince though. The AI neighbors won't have the techs for you to get research discounts or BPT from trade routes, so reaching the techs to get Uni takes a little longer. This in turn causes Public Schools to take even longer which compounds to make Labs delayed as well.

CSs also won't be making workers on T16. More like T30 on Prince so you have to hard build your first worker (maybe 2) which also delays your infrastructure (i.e. Library).

 

[Atinuviel]

Fair enough. It's been a while since I played Prince. Regardless, the OP's screenshots showed crucial weaknesses in his gameplay. Always, always focus on food, unless it'll take you forever to build something useful or it'll cause you to go unhappy. If you're playing it right, as Babylon you should easily be going ahead in tech near classical and be in the lead sometime in the Medieval.

 

[phillipwyllie]

...I'd playing Babylon wide, and am gunning for a SV. Except I keep replaying the first 100 turns to nail down my foundation....

This is your problem here. Liberty isn't the easiest policy to play, coupled with the fact that techs and policy cost(s) increase with each city founded. I'd go for a 4-city Tradition approach, opting for a 3 city NC then settling your 4th city after the NC has been built. Acken has produced a 100 turn LP on the subject.
Science is all about growth so you want to settle near a river, and a mountain if it won't compromise growth. Settling a unique luxury is another goal, although as the tech leader you will have many DOFs so trading luxuries shouldn't be a problem. Babylon is al about generating GS so you want a garden and the National Epic in your capital before you rush-buy(ideally) the university. You want the Oracle and LToP, and any other wonder that give GS points(can't recall atm).

 

[ToborajniN]

I don't think you should be focusing on the "most optimal play" just yet. If you've just moved up to emperor then you're probably, no offence at all here, not yet ready for the most "optimal" plays. Thus: I think you should keep going liberty if you enjoy playing liberty. It's just as viable as 4 city trad etc.

Atinuviel makes some really good points though. (Apart from the beakers perhaps, as they may be a bit unrealistic on prince) Focus on growing your cities, either by working more food tiles, or by sending internal trade routes (Cap is prio here). Also, as he says, guilds are pretty darn nice to get early on. I also agree on the part that you really should've finished the Liberty tree before going that far down in Piety, since the finisher is pretty darn nice.

Another really important factor when going for culture imo is to get friendly/allied with as many cultured city states as you can. The extra 6 culture from each one is really big early on. (I see you have one of those, and that's nice)

finally: That religion name

 

[MasochistAngel]

Thanks for the responses!! I really appreciate it! ^___^ My initial post might have been confusing, this game is on Emperor, not Prince!

My happiness being so high was kind of a fluke, since I find the AI isn't often willing to trade so many luxes away.. Cap pop is low because of the Liberty policy biasing building Settlers in your Cap, and I felt like going food at the time was gimping my production, but maybe I was just trying to rush things that weren't crucial..

I tend to delay building guilds when not going for a CV, but I'm guessing that's a bad thing? For policies, I normally go Opener > Citizenship > Representation just so that the 3rd city and on are generating 33% less culture, however it doesn't feel like it makes much of a difference? Even if the math suggests it would.. The one I held out on was Meritocracy, since Happiness wasn't an issue anyway, and I was saving the free GE for LToP. Should I be using it for something else earlier on? Oracle? I'm also kinda feeling like maybe going Piety isn't the best for a SV game..?

I actually went Liberty for the playstyle difference after way too many games going Tradition (and the challenge of having to manage more. I figured it would make me better, faster, since I'd need to have priorities and know the gameplay mechanics well to play it well). I absolutely make sure I settle near a river but I'll even delay my founding by 1-2 turns to grab a river and a mountain. Since my capital will get all the academies it just seems required to have a river/mountain start. I try to do the same for as many cities afterwards as I can, prioritizing mountains over rivers - should that be switched?

It's exactly because I'm aware of the gap in skill between myself and players who design "the most optimal play" that I'm trying to learn it! I figure if I learn from the best, I'll get better that much faster. I'll finish up Liberty with my next SP, and then go for Reformation before opening Rationalism, I guess.. I do plan to continue this playthrough, and actually have it open right now to do so~

As to that religion name, I'm a girl who likes girls and I grew up on anime, what can I say? It's always hilarious seeing CSs want conversation, too. You should see my city names on MP games~

So...I guess to sum it up I'm switching to focusing population til my happiness is down to something more like 1-4, and finishing up Liberty, then going for Reformation and then Rationalism and...maybe Patronage?

 

[wayneb64]

For more culture production there are a number of nice Religious Pantheons that give a big boost early on, and if you can get a religion, Monasteries, Mosques and Pagodas are nice as well, my favorite being Pagodas. You might even get two if you can get your religion enhanced pretty quickly. Also if the AI spreads their religion to you, be sure and buy their religious buildings before you convert back to your own religion.

Also, get your writers guild up and populated for a nice 6 cpt plus the great work also adds cpt and Tourism.

 

[Acken]

My happiness being so high was kind of a fluke, since I find the AI isn't often willing to trade so many luxes away.. Cap pop is low because of the Liberty policy biasing building Settlers in your Cap, and I felt like going food at the time was gimping my production, but maybe I was just trying to rush things that weren't crucial..

5 at T150 is just way too low. Grow and build aqueducts.

I tend to delay building guilds when not going for a CV, but I'm guessing that's a bad thing? For policies, I normally go Opener > Citizenship > Representation just so that the 3rd city and on are generating 33% less culture, however it doesn't feel like it makes much of a difference? Even if the math suggests it would.. The one I held out on was Meritocracy, since Happiness wasn't an issue anyway, and I was saving the free GE for LToP. Should I be using it for something else earlier on? Oracle? I'm also kinda feeling like maybe going Piety isn't the best for a SV game..?

Well meritocracy would feel more necessary if your cities were growing normally. Collective rule is better than Representation early on for the simple reason that reducing the culture cost of cities without having cities isn't great and the additional hammer for new cities is just too important for liberty. You can get a GS out of the finisher too. The GE is usually for Petra or NC or Notre Dame in a science liberty. If none of these are available or interesting I'd suggest an Academy.

I actually went Liberty for the playstyle difference after way too many games going Tradition (and the challenge of having to manage more. I figured it would make me better, faster, since I'd need to have priorities and know the gameplay mechanics well to play it well). I absolutely make sure I settle near a river but I'll even delay my founding by 1-2 turns to grab a river and a mountain. Since my capital will get all the academies it just seems required to have a river/mountain start. I try to do the same for as many cities afterwards as I can, prioritizing mountains over rivers - should that be switched?

Depends what kind of land we're talking about. Due to the lower city pop and the lack of extra trade route it's not recommended to settle a mountain if the city cannot grow when going liberty. The bonus from observatory is great but can be overcome by a more populated city or an overall better land with nicer production and luxuries.

So...I guess to sum it up I'm switching to focusing population til my happiness is down to something more like 1-4, and finishing up Liberty, then going for Reformation and then Rationalism and...maybe Patronage?

Well if your game had been great you wouldn't have the policies to go that far down Piety before Renaissance. I'd certainly finish Liberty first and then Rationalism.

 

[Atinuviel]

Thanks for the responses!! I really appreciate it! ^___^ My initial post might have been confusing, this game is on Emperor, not Prince!

My happiness being so high was kind of a fluke, since I find the AI isn't often willing to trade so many luxes away.. Cap pop is low because of the Liberty policy biasing building Settlers in your Cap, and I felt like going food at the time was gimping my production, but maybe I was just trying to rush things that weren't crucial..

I tend to delay building guilds when not going for a CV, but I'm guessing that's a bad thing? For policies, I normally go Opener > Citizenship > Representation just so that the 3rd city and on are generating 33% less culture, however it doesn't feel like it makes much of a difference? Even if the math suggests it would.. The one I held out on was Meritocracy, since Happiness wasn't an issue anyway, and I was saving the free GE for LToP. Should I be using it for something else earlier on? Oracle? I'm also kinda feeling like maybe going Piety isn't the best for a SV game..?

I actually went Liberty for the playstyle difference after way too many games going Tradition (and the challenge of having to manage more. I figured it would make me better, faster, since I'd need to have priorities and know the gameplay mechanics well to play it well). I absolutely make sure I settle near a river but I'll even delay my founding by 1-2 turns to grab a river and a mountain. Since my capital will get all the academies it just seems required to have a river/mountain start. I try to do the same for as many cities afterwards as I can, prioritizing mountains over rivers - should that be switched?

It's exactly because I'm aware of the gap in skill between myself and players who design "the most optimal play" that I'm trying to learn it! I figure if I learn from the best, I'll get better that much faster. I'll finish up Liberty with my next SP, and then go for Reformation before opening Rationalism, I guess.. I do plan to continue this playthrough, and actually have it open right now to do so~

As to that religion name, I'm a girl who likes girls and I grew up on anime, what can I say? It's always hilarious seeing CSs want conversation, too. You should see my city names on MP games~

So...I guess to sum it up I'm switching to focusing population til my happiness is down to something more like 1-4, and finishing up Liberty, then going for Reformation and then Rationalism and...maybe Patronage?

Unless you're going Poland, there's usually not enough culture to have that much policy. My games usually go Tradition/Liberty => Some into Patronage/Commerce until Renaissance => Rationalism, top left, right side => Ideologies => Finish Rationalism. At this point, Piety is just not a strong enough tree to compete with the likes of Rationalism IMO. (I've never tried Small Piety, so can't speak for that) Ideology policies are just so much better than the others that most of the time until you get to the 3rd tier ideology, there's no point putting another point into your social policies.

For example, for a Babylon liberty game I might finish Liberty, use my finisher to get a Great Scientist to build an academy, or a Great Engineer to finish my National College or snatch a big wonder like Notre Dame, Petra, or occasionally even Chichen Itza if I feel like I'll be short on happiness. Then until I get into Renaissance, I might invest a few points into Patronage, Commerce, or even open Tradition so my border grows quicker. But most importantly you want to open Renaissance ASAP so you can start investing in Rationalism. A common entry is via Acoustic right after you get your Education, but some other people enter it via Astronomy for the Observatories. I occasionally make a detour to Metal Casting for Workshop, but that's another topic altogether. After that I get Secularism for 2 beaker for specialist, then the right side of Rationalism for more GS and super Trading Post and Universities. At this point I try to have my ideology opened up through Radio. Next few policies go into Order...etc etc, until I can get Spaceflight Pioneer, although I may hold it off a little bit until the very end so I don't delay my Great People generation since they count as GP generated. At this point I finish up Rationalism for the free tech, and then whatever policies I get before I finish the game I just do whatever I want with it.

 

[MasochistAngel]

I actually have Pagodas and Cathedrals in my religion, Wayneb. Though you're right, the guilds would help, particularly Writers, and I'll be getting that up ASAP. Although China just constructed LoTP so I'm wondering if I shouldn't just scrap it and restart with all this advice in mind.. Maybe just play this out to see if I can't win it and consider it a learning experience.

I'll keep that in mind, Acken; that's one thing I'm not used to with Liberty - the lack of free Aqueducts, and I'm not sure where they should go in tech order or build order. Is there a specific number of "turns before growth" I should be looking for before I jump into teching and building them? Is Representation picked up last because you can tend to hold off on founding more than 3/4 cities before you get it? I'll keep the other points in mind, thanks, particularly that last one. I see I need to learn what my priorities should actually be..

Thanks for the policy order. That's how I tend to do it, save with the holding off on finishing Liberty, which I'll stop going forward, haha. And y'know, going for Piety instead of Patronage or Commerce, which I'd like to switch to, as it feels like Patronage could be really powerful.

T199: http://gyazo.com/a0ccf669ed177511818d8eecacd6e794

 

[Acken]

My suggestion is Philosophy > Engineering > Metal Casting > Education

Metal casting before or after Education is up for debate.

 

[MasochistAngel]

Thanks. Good to know I was going about it the right way when playing at my best, which this game clearly was not. Around turn 182 I had two par techs and Germany had finished the Apollo program. I probably would have been doing better were it not for a prolonged war with Russia...which I was barely "winning", if you can call losing a city, having them raze it to 1 pop, and then taking it back winning, courtesy of my being behind in science for so long and not building any military.

I found the lack of ability to buy GEs with Faith to be a total pain in the ass, so I may actually do this next run as Tradition...but now I'm kind of determined to succeed at a LIberty run, heh. Thanks for all the help. Maybe I'll report back with screenshots of vital turns on this next game to help other people who might want to try the same thing.