Lunatic Irish Woman Seeks Sensible Civvers for Productive Discussion.

[boredatwork]

My biggest peeve is any criticism of Civ 5 being answered with "It's not Civ 4."

For the record all 3 major changes (hexes/1UPT/removal of religion,corps,espionage) I was in favour of. My ideal game was combining the empire building of Civ with the combat of Panzer General.

Unfortunately between poor AI, underwealming empire building, too many layer UI, poor english (Lord Elizabeth?) and most importantly glacial game pace (likely due to the limited number of cities, and underwealming city development options) my Civ5 experience could be summed up simply as:

"Just... One... More... Turn... And maybe this game will start being fun."

Unfortunately 16 hours of play and a combined 900+ turns later it's appearing less and less likely.

 

[Gorey]

I don't sit there in MS Office on go "WHY, Microsoft, why have you organised all these options into various submenus rather than giving me a massive load of icons that would either take up the entire screen, or be completely impossible to make out unless you squint or have perfect eyesight!!! Damn you!"

LMAO

actually i DO sit there in Microsoft Office and go "WHY, Microsoft, why have you forsaken traditional tool bars and included this rediculous tabbed thing you call a ribbon".

Oh thats right.. their focus groups told them that traditional toolbars were too hard for the "casual user".

 

[CaptainBinky]

Heh

Actually, I'm not so much talking about new versions of Office. Dunno what they're like - I use Open Office now - it was just a random bit of software that runs on Windows that has menus

Point being, "why have they changed it?", well we know why - they've said as much. It's been optimised to be less intimidating for new players so that less common or more advanced features are tucked away. You can't argue with them for that unless you think that they shouldn't be trying to encourage new players. It's not Civ Revolution - this is very very much a Civ V.

 

[Drake L. Dragon]

Wow -- a great thread having valid complaints. I'm sure a lot of us are quite surprised by this development.

In terms of the interface, the problem has a simple answer, which is that there will be no answer. It's an issue of art and beauty. Some people do not like the trade of direct convenience for minimalistic art. Some people would not like a trade of a clean screen for more direct buttons. Now, I can actually understand and see why someone might have a problem with the interface, and that's something that is debatable. What I don't understand, for example, are people complaining about city-states, when you can, for example, just turn them off or make them more limited in number per map.

However, one thing that was an inconvenience for me in Civilization IV was the scoreboard at the bottom, right-hand corner, which quickly filled up to the maximum, if you had many civilizations available in a game and had the revolutions mod on. The cleaner looking scoreboard is a pretty drastic improvement, at least for me.

 

[spiffamoo]

Imo, vanilla IV had positively one of the most unfriendly and unintuitive UIs around for a game of its complexity. BTS and BUG/BAT mod was a godsend that fixed all that. After BUG I became a much better player, which is a testament to how lousy IV's UI was initially.

I'm hoping that soon there will be a V BUG mod that will allow more options and timesaving shortcuts, but what I've seen so far in V has given off a good vibe. Clean and still has important info presented clearly.

 

[White Elk]

Heh
Point being, "why have they changed it?", well we know why - they've said as much. It's been optimised to be less intimidating for new players so that less common or more advanced features are tucked away. You can't argue with them for that unless you think that they shouldn't be trying to encourage new players.

I don't get this... but I understand what your saying

New players are new players only for a short amount of time. As "one more turn" evolves into "one more game" they become fanatics. The game of Civilization seems to very much be a passion for its fans. The passionate fan base (the core) play many many games. Even new players may quickly grow tired of the clickety click hide and seek mini-game of the new UI. Why design the UI for the short run, when Civ is a long run game. Prioritize function in teh form. It is to be a long used form afterall.


(NOTE: Some people are going to like the new UI. Others will prefer the old. I'm just speaking to the arguement as to why it be the way it is)

 

[TCoZ]

I like the new UI. My favourite part about it is that unlike in Civ IV, where if you had to research a new tech, or produce something in a city, it would lock you into doing that without letting you do pretty much anything else. Yes, you could change it afterwards, but it really annoyed me. In Civ V, I love how it's all in a list and you can do it in whatever order you want. On the other hand, I'm not liking how all of the more technical stuff has been hidden away or even removed (ie turns to heal, turns to create an improvement).

 

[Gorey]

I don't get this... but I understand what your saying

New players are new players only for a short amount of time. As "one more turn" evolves into "one more game" they become fanatics. The game of Civilization seems to very much be a passion for its fans. The passionate fan base (the core) play many many games. Even the noobs may quickly grow tired of the clickety click hide and seek mini-game of the new UI. Why design the UI for the short run, when Civ is a long run game.


(NOTE: Some people are going to like the new UI. Others will prefer the old. I'm just speaking to the arguement that it is the way it is for the noobs)

Exactly. Thats why i can never understand it when people streamline things to make it easier for noobs.

It's only new for like the first hour or so. After that you pretty much know what everything does. Hover the mouse over it.. ok thats the tech screen button. Once they learn it they're going to start cursing about having alot of the things they need hidden. So bascially the direction alot of people take these days is designing a 1 hour interface. After that hour is up, you're left with a streamlined but clunky interface for EVERYONE.

IMO, it needs to be out in the open. Because casual users will never know it exists. I routinely have to show my Mother how to work a piece of software because she's too dense to look inside the menus. If it's not on the toolbar it doesn't exist to her.

Can you do this? She asks? I say have you looked through the all the menus to see whats possible to do? I don't know, can you do it for me?

 

[Gorey]

I like the new UI. My favourite part about it is that unlike in Civ IV, where if you had to research a new tech, or produce something in a city, it would lock you into doing that without letting you do pretty much anything else. Yes, you could change it afterwards, but it really annoyed me. In Civ V, I love how it's all in a list and you can do it in whatever order you want. On the other hand, I'm not liking how all of the more technical stuff has been hidden away or even removed (ie turns to heal, turns to create an improvement).

Minimize popups option in Civ IV. Enable it, use it, love it. Just like Civ5's. It should have been on by default IMO.

 

[Venereus]

I don't get this... but I understand what your saying

New players are new players only for a short amount of time. As "one more turn" evolves into "one more game" they become fanatics. The game of Civilization seems to very much be a passion for its fans. The passionate fan base (the core) play many many games. Even the noobs may quickly grow tired of the clickety click hide and seek mini-game of the new UI. Why design the UI for the short run, when Civ is a long run game.


(NOTE: Some people are going to like the new UI. Others will prefer the old. I'm just speaking to the arguement that it is the way it is for the noobs)

That seems to be the overarching issue with Civ V. The designers made it newbie friendly, but they underestimated newbies, screwing over veterans in the process. I ask myself, who are the newbies Firaxis had in mind?

What's with the dumb AI and the trying-too-hard-not-to-intimidate-new-players UI? They really think people that ******ed will buy a Civ game? How lowest common denominator can you get?

I would go on, but I might get into half-trolling, and I respect this oasis thread.

 

[Gorey]

Ok, i retire from UI discussion. I've said my peace, and im sure you guys are tiring of it.

Lets discuss another aspect shall we?

 

[Venereus]

Ok, i retire from UI discussion. I've said my peace, and im sure you guys are tiring of it.

Lets discuss another aspect shall we?

There's a reason for the dominance of the UI issue in this thread. It seems to be the "real issue" for a serious discussion. Away from it, we're back to raging and fanboying about hat we like and what we don't. Unfortunately, as I suspected, we've come to realize the UI is also just a matter of taste. And so are most of the issues posted by the haters and the fanboys, even with thier lack of arguments. So as much as I hate to admit it, the problem with this thread's proposition is that even if the conversation stays civil, there's no escaping relativity.

 

[Wardancing]

i was recently away for 6 months in a 3rd world country without access to any internet ... set my steam up to offline mode and had no problems ... just dont get any steam achievment and can not install new steam games
i can not vouch for some random proxy that some random guy had setup, but imo the benifits of steam far outweigh and negitive points

Im sorry for not being clearer. When you have internet access and choose to use offline mode, steam still communicates, even while being in Offline mode.

With sp save games, multiplayer games, mods... auto updating just doesnt make sense for me. Also mods autoupdating dont make sense to me. Sometimes i like a mod, but then the creator(s) change/add/remove something that i dont like, id rather not upgrade.


to everyone keeping it civil

 

[White Elk]

Ok, i retire from UI discussion. I've said my peace, and im sure you guys are tiring of it.

Lets discuss another aspect shall we?

Hehe, civil discussion is fun :~)

One thing I would have very much liked about this UI, is all the options available for city workers. Being able to Lock Down work on specific tiles would have been Huge for me! Arghhh, I'd get so frustrated having to go back and reassign workers everytime a city grew or lost population. Civ5 fixed that with authority it appears. I'm sure there are other UI changes I would embrace. But I am a big fan of the one-click-go!

 

[lietkynes]

I miss my "turns until healed", hover mouse "turns left to finish improvement" (you have to select the working worker to know)

No, the tooltip is there in Civ5 also, it just has a 1 second delay, but you can change it to 0 seconds from the options to make it like Civ4 mouse-over.

 

[Gorey]

Ok i have 1 minor annoyance that im sure some of you haven't run into yet.

Hotkey for showing resource icon is the same as building a road. (It used to be CTRL+R, but now it's just R)

5 times in my last demo playthrough, i accidently started work on a road when i had my worker selected. I wanted to show the resource icons instead to decide where to move my worker to next. After the 5th time i finally figured out why my worker kept starting roads LOL.

Though, had i not mapped the show resource and tile yield hotkeys to buttons on my mouse, i probably would have figure it out sooner.

 

[Selous]

i like the look of the new UI but the functionality blows goats

 

[darkedone02]

to me, this game is like a brand spakin new civilization 3, with more features and tweaks and hex.

 

[White Elk]

There's a reason for the dominance of the UI issue in this thread. It seems to be the "real issue" for a serious discussion. Away from it, we're back to raging and fanboying about hat we like and what we don't. Unfortunately, as I suspected, we've come to realize the UI is also just a matter of taste. And so are most of the issues posted by the haters and the fanboys, even with thier lack of arguments. So as much as I hate to admit it, the problem with this thread's proposition is that even if the conversation stays civil, there's no escaping relativity.

Quoted for truth!

Take away the polarizing fanboy/hater syndrome (and other us/them distractions), and we are left with WE... a diverse community of living, breathing, thinking beings discussing our relative views. Learn a little, share some, take a little away to ponder on later. You were right to compare the tone of this thread to an Oasis (hope you don't mind the sig quote?). This thread is a breath of fresh air. Makes me feel light of heart to chat it up with you all here.

 

[Gorey]

Maybe i just haven't figure it out yet, because clicking on a city bar takes you directly to the city screen now.. but how do you set up rally points for newly created units?

I'm guessing it's gone now because of 1UPT?

Would be nice if the unit just moved to the closest tile possible to the rally point.