[UNIT] Mighty Ships Et Al

Hm... In the new version of Invictus? So far I see a cheerful pulling out of the Mattem of ships close in spirit from a special Russian game made by naval maniacs for the same maniacs:D
And yes, happy last holiday.

As a rule, I don't do that, unlike MatteM, as those are too high-poly for my liking, and the minute details are lost on Civ 4 scale anyway. I did convert a couple of pre-dreadnoughts from other games, and a torpedo boat from Humankind - in which case I did specifically have to undersize its torpedo tube to make it look close to reality, as the designers of Humankind apparently also think that to make a game asset one has to take a real-life boat and increase its gun and its chimney by x2. I wonder what uncle Freud would say... :mischief:
 
Did not Freud have much to say on the human mind and "bigger guns"?

I'm afraid Freud didn't say anything about this - because he never connected big technology with compensation at all. This is "folklore psychoanalysis".
But in the USSR he was still disliked - just in case.

ACS "Compensator".... sorry, a Freudian reservation. "Condensator".

But this is dull conservatism. Uncompromising option
Spoiler :


 
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If you want to look for ridiculously big and impractical guns you should look at the very late ironclads just before the predreadnaught era. Back when everyone still used iron armor in actual feet.

Like say the Victoria which had a displacement just a tad larger than a modern destroyer and yet sported something like half a meter of iron on her and a single 16 inch gun that could fire about one round every three to five minutes because that's what it took to break through that much armor back in the 1890's. Or that French thing he posted which literally has 2x16.5 inch guns on a frame that's 3/4 of a modern destroyer.

Like if there had been a war back than it would have been between these tiny ships (relative to what we are used to) made up mostly of armor and gun (singular) circle strafing each other at like 20 something km/h firing off a shot each every once in a while like some demented game of tennis played with hand grenades in slow motion.

It would have been hilarious to watch.
 
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And as with any early tech, most casualties would not come from the enemy, but from said tech blowing up in your face. The main danger to the crews of early tanks, for instance, has been said tanks. If you ever were inside a Mark V, you'd have seen the motor is dead centre of the pretty cramped compartment, and it got scaldingly hot - and the ample crew of 8 mostly naked (it was so hot inside you'd pass out otherwise) people had to do their best to never touch it (again, dead centre) under risk of severe burns in a moving vehicle that would meanwhile shake violently. And if you're wondering, yes, they had to move about a lot, since - again - said engine was so noisy that any communication between crew members could only happen by shouting in each others' ears. Oh, and while said engine kinda had an exhaust, the guns didn't - so after each shot, the insides of the tank would fill with gun smoke. So the inevitable heat stroke and burns were compounded by CO poisoning. And remember, this all just from the standard operation of the tank, so I'm not even mentioning the prospect of getting a sharp piece of the hull to the face, which is why those mostly naked people struggling to breathe would still voluntarily wear (and craft ersatz solutions when those weren't available) masks like this to at least protect their faces from bits of hull that would splinter and shoot inside like shrapnel - again, without even any enemy action (don't confuse this with rivets that would shoot inside like shrapnel due to enemy fire :mischief:), just from the thin metal sheets of the hull overheating simply by virtue of the tank getting places.
 
sported something like half a meter of iron
Actually, even a little more. The Victoria has 456 mm steel-iron armor ("compound"). This is +30% relative to iron, the equivalent of about 600 mm.

and a single 16 inch gun

1. No, Victoria had 2 guns in the tower. An English ironclad ram with a single large cannon is a "Hotspur". By the way, quite an interesting ship with a round casemate as an ersatz tower. It is quite "what if" - given the fact that guns on rotary platforms have been known since at least the 18th century, only sailing/rowing armored ships were invented three times. I.e. ironclads with mobile artillery could well have existed before the steam engine, but rotating the tower manually is a dubious decision.

2. Well, the British in the caliber race were led by conservatives. The fact is that the Italians then literally reproduced the Japanese of the 30s - with an accuracy of 10 mm. Exactly for the same reason – "since we cannot build many ships, we will rely on individual superiority." Plus, after the battle of Lissa, the dump theory prevailed – it was assumed that in the powder and not only smoke, control would be lost and "every ship would be for itself."
As a result, 7 macaroni monsters sailed across the Mediterranean at one time - 5 tactical analogues of the Yamato, but more radically, because the speed. I.e., the battleships were the largest and fastest. And yes, 431 mm of full-fledged steel armor (and 550 mm of early brittle). Plus two "battlecruisers" in the same spirit.
It all started with 2 Duilio-type battleships with 450 mm guns, then there were 5 with 431mm artillery.
The British responded to the "Duilio" "Inflexible" with 406-mm, and then there were "Benbow" and 2 "Victoria"-type. And then the French came and ruined everything.

about one round every three to five minutes because that's what it took to break through that much armor back in the 1890's.

In addition, the guns were heavily refitted. The Russian Wiki slanders that with an estimated resource of 100+ shots, the guns "changed the geometry" after the first few.
The nuance is that, as you probably know, medium artillery in the era of smoky powder and separate loading did not shine. As a result, it was possible to pull armor into the citadel with relative impunity, even at the then battle distances. Meanwhile, 431 mm of steel armor = 560 mm of iron equivalent, and the Inflexible had 610 mm of iron. This is the equivalent of 233-254 mm Krupp armor. Only superdreadnoughts noticeably surpassed these figures. I.e., the battles would very vividly resemble tank ones - if they happened. Against the same background, the great love of the French "young school" for torpedoes and the fascination with the battering ram despised by Internet experts becomes clear.
Hence the theory of the knockout blow, which is considered "heresy" – "the enemy ship must be seriously damaged even by a single hit." In practice, we have 1. small distances, even the Victoria has an armor penetration of 820 mm at a distance of 1 km. And this is most likely at an almost right angle. Then the shells at least fly in an arc and slow down.
2. low rate of fire and
3. already quite high speed. For example, a 17-knot battleship will overcome 1 kilometers in 2 minutes. In any case, there will be no more than two volleys. At the same time, torpedoes and a ram will go further into action. It is obvious that artillery that is not capable of "knockout" in such a situation becomes ineffective.
In general, the growth of calibers was also stimulated by this. Moreover, it stimulated the second time - in about the same spirit (with several very large guns that were not even going to be reloaded), the late carracks and early galleons were armed. The reasons are almost the same - low rate of fire and aggressive tactics with a bet on boarding as a consequence.
Well, the whole era of pre-Dreadnoughts actually looks like one big misunderstanding. In fact, after the revolution in armament, the specific design of the times of gunpowder (2-4 heavy guns plus a trifle) was preserved mainly by inertia. At the same time, almost dreadnought design was invented back in the 1860s.
 
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Actually, even a little more. The Victoria has 456 mm steel-iron armor ("compound").
It's still half a meter worth of material which is what I was pointing out. I mean, that's insane for a ship that small. :)

No, Victoria had 2 guns in the tower. An English ironclad ram with a single large cannon is a "Hotspur". By the way, quite an interesting ship with a round casemate as an ersatz tower. It is quite "what if" - given the fact that guns on rotary platforms have been known since at least the 18th century, only sailing/rowing battleships were invented three times. I.e. battleships with mobile artillery could well have existed before the steam engine, but rotating the tower manually is a dubious decision.
Well yes, it had lots of small guns on the side which in hindsight do add to the ridiculousness of the situation. I just did not think that they were as relevant to the discussion at hand at the time of posting. Although again, in hindsight they make the whole thing even more... honestly I struggle to find the right word. The only thing that comes to mind is 40K ork vehicles with like guns bristling out of every opening even if you know there shouldn't be enough room on the inside for all of them. :)

Well, the British in the caliber race were led by conservatives. The fact is that the Italians then literally reproduced the Japanese of the 30s - with an accuracy of 10 mm. Exactly for the same reason – "since we cannot build many ships, we will rely on individual superiority." Plus, after the battle of Lissa, the dump theory prevailed – it was assumed that in the powder and not only smoke, control would be lost and "every ship would be for itself."
As a result, 7 macaroni monsters sailed across the Mediterranean at one time - 5 tactical analogues of the Yamato, but more radically, because the speed. I.e., the battleships were the largest and fastest. And yes, 431 mm of full-fledged steel armor (and 550 mm of early brittle). Plus two "battlecruisers" in the same spirit.
It all started with 2 Duilio-type battleships with 450 mm guns,

then there were 5 with 431mm artillery.
The British responded to the "Duilio" Inflexible with 406-mm, and then there were "Benbow" and 2 "Victoria". And then the French came and ruined everything.
Has that approach ever actually worked out for anyone ever? Like, as far as I can see if the enemy can outbuild you he can outbuild you. And it does not matter if you try and make a swarm of cheap ships or a couple huge ones if he can outbuild you it's over.

In addition, the guns were heavily refitted. The Russian Wiki slanders that with an estimated resource of 100+ shots, the guns "changed the geometry" after the first few.
The nuance is that, as you probably know, medium artillery in the era of smoky powder and separate loading did not shine. As a result, it was possible to pull armor into the citadel with relative impunity, even at the then battle distances. Meanwhile, 431 mm of steel armor = 560 mm of iron equivalent, and the Inflexible had 610 mm of iron. This is the equivalent of 233-254 mm Krupp armor. Only superdreadnoughts noticeably surpassed these figures. I.e., the battles would very vividly resemble tank ones - if they happened.
Yea, it's insane. One can easily see why people thought ramming was going to be the norm. That's really the only reliable way to deliver a knockout punch in that era.

Against the same background, the great love of the French "young school" for torpedoes and the fascination with the battering ram despised by Internet experts becomes clear.
Hence the theory of the knockout blow, which is considered "heresy" – "the enemy ship must be seriously damaged even by a single hit." In practice, we have 1. small distances, even the Victoria has an armor penetration of 820 mm at a distance of 1 km. And this is most likely at an almost right angle. Then the shells at least fly in an arc and slow down.
2. low rate of fire and
3. already quite high speed. For example, a 17-knot battleship will overcome 1.5 kilometers in 3 minutes, even faster than the guns will have time to recharge and load. At the same time, torpedoes and a ram will go further into action. It is obvious that artillery that is not capable of "knockout" in such a situation becomes ineffective.
In general, the growth of calibers was also stimulated by this. Moreover, it stimulated the second time - in about the same spirit (with several very large guns that were not even going to be reloaded), the late carracks and early galleons were armed. The reasons are almost the same - low rate of fire and aggressive tactics with a bet on boarding as a consequence.
Well, the whole era of pre-Dreadnoughts actually looks like one big misunderstanding. In fact, after the revolution in armament, the specific design of the times of gunpowder (2-4 heavy guns plus a trifle) was preserved mainly by inertia. At the same time, almost dreadnought design was invented back in the 1860s.
That's what I was thinking as well. When we are talking about singular gun mounts with rates of fire so slow that any sort of data you get from watching splashes is going to be completely useless if your target is moving at all. And in an age before rangefinders and mechanical firing computers wouldn't that make accurate gunnery from a moving target at a moving target almost impossible? And even if you do hit, what than? Unless you manage to set off a magazine explosion or something you just got one hit in after god knows how many tries, the enemy starts evading and you're back to square one.

This said, I have my own personal problems with the Jeune École approach but that's on the grand strategy side. Basically the whole thing relies on your enemy somehow being able to outbuild you in ships (which is why you are doing it in the first place) and yet at the same time won't take notice of what you are doing and divert some of that construction into countering you. I mean, if he can build 5 battleships to your 2 so you scrap those plans and build 100 torpedo boats instead won't he just build 3 battleships, 100 torpedo boat destroyers and still have you outnumbered?

It's like one of those strategies that only work if you are playing a game where each player buys all their tokens at the start and your opponent has to go first.
 
Has that approach ever actually worked out for anyone ever?


Well, at least a few such cases are known at sea. For example, the success of Nelson and Ushakov's tactics was ensured not only by the results of the best qualifications and... aggressiveness. The British had carronades, and the Russians had single, but powerful and fast 80-gun twin-guns. Ushakov's flagship "The Nativity of Christ" is just one of two. However, ideologically it is more "Iowa" than "Yamato". On land, statistics are huge - starting at least from the era of "there is one answer to any of your questions - we have a chariot, you don't have it."
Moreover, this is the archetype of such superiority - great strength + great mobility, which does not allow the enemy to crush the numbers of cheaper units. But here, of course, you need to run to stay in place - otherwise Pharaoh Yahmose will come to the Hyksos with the same chariot.

That's what I was thinking as well. When we are talking about singular gun mounts with rates of fire so slow that any sort of data you get from watching splashes is going to be completely useless if your target is moving at all. And in an age before rangefinders and mechanical firing computers wouldn't that make accurate gunnery from a moving target at a moving target almost impossible?


Well, 1. It wasn't that bad. Mechanical calculators began to be made on an industrial scale before the appearance of armored ships, measuring a distance of about a couple of kilometers was also not a problem 2. Everything was greatly compensated by short range, large target size and by the end of the period - already the flatness of the trajectory.
Nevertheless, yes, without a very thorough training, they fell badly.

This said, I have my own personal problems with the Jeune École approach but that's on the grand strategy side.

Yes, the concept Jeune École was strategically nonsense, I completely agree - you can't create serious problems for an economically superior enemy by building a lot of low-tech. However, the Italians had an ideologically opposite approach, and more meaningful than the Japanese. In the case of "floating pasta monsters", they also implemented greater mobility.

APD:


It looks like a Victorian papparazzi camera, but in fact, this almost pocket-sized thing can measure the distance to the ship, knowing the height of the masts. At long distances it is almost useless, but at small distances it gives acceptable accuracy.
 
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It looks like a Victorian papparazzi camera, but in fact, this almost pocket-sized thing can measure the distance to the ship, knowing the height of the masts. At long distances it is almost useless, but at small distances it gives acceptable accuracy.
Ok, that is seriously cool. I didn't know such things existed at the time. I am used to thinking off rangefinders as those huge things you'd see on the sides of turrets and stuff. But yea, I guess at the sort of ranges these things would be fighting with you totally could get away with something handy like this. It's not until you start fighting at huge ranges that you start needing those huge things.
 
Ok, that is seriously cool.
These are small things. But pigeon mail carrying microfilm in 1871 almost destroyed my brain at the time:D.
At the same time, Victorian pigeons are also technologically advanced:rolleyes:

ut yea, I guess at the sort of ranges these things would be fighting with you totally could get away with something handy like this.

There is no data directly on this piece, but its English counterpart gave an accuracy of 10 yards at a distance of 6600. However, in ideal conditions.
It is also clear that the operator needs a qualified one - to accurately identify the ship, perhaps make an amendment - the waterline "crawls" within a fairly wide range, and in battle the silhouette of the target can "slightly" change. Plus, with this thing, you need to look for the necessary data in the table (classical rangefinders get it automatically). By the way, perhaps the career of the "paparazzi" was also spoiled by the increase in the rate of fire.
Anyway, the gadget is quite accurate in its niche, while the network sells instructions for an unmodernized version of this device, published in 1869. And it's not a fact that she's the first.
 
What ought to smash your brain is the Antikythera Device... As well as ancient automata. Brilliant I have to say. If people put their minds to it, they could have made a lot more stuff, a lot faster.
 
What ought to smash your brain is the Antikythera Device... As well as ancient automata. Brilliant I have to say. If people put their minds to it, they could have made a lot more stuff, a lot faster.
Well, what the Antikythera mechanism really demonstrates is that the Greeks never thought of differential transmission. The Chinese ("the chariot pointing to the south"), characteristically, thought of it. Meanwhile, what is seriously interesting in such "anachronisms" is the use of new principles earlier than is commonly thought. And here it is difficult to compete with galvanic cells from Mesopotamia.

In general, there are a huge number of such oddities that break the "pop-cultural" idea of the era. This is how, for example, contemporaries describe the boarding of the 16th century.

«And after the coupling and boarding comes the turn of all other types of weapons, which I mentioned, first of all, throwing weapons, shooting darts (dardos) and stones (piedras), guns (escopetas) and crossbows (ballestas), pots with incendiary mixture (alcancías), which were mentioned above, and which are thrown from the tops and superstructures, as well as iron hedgehogs (garlic, los abrojos), palm trees (los botafuegos), containers with suffocating gas (pildoras, English stinkballs), grenades (las granadas), hooks for cutting sails and rigging (alacranes or escorpiones, scorpions). At this moment, all the trumpets should sound and with a loud "hurrah" from each ship, they should rush at the enemy with all kinds of weapons and devices for cutting rigging (guadañas) in the form of scythes and sickles impaled on handles (hoses enastadas), as well as flamethrower pipes and incendiary pots (con las trompas y bocas de fuego), hitting the rigging and enemy personnel with fire».

Moreover, descriptions of chemical weapons in the 16th and 17th centuries are practically banal. In Russia, this was called romantically: "сannonball fragrant". :rolleyes:
 
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What ought to smash your brain is the Antikythera Device... As well as ancient automata. Brilliant I have to say. If people put their minds to it, they could have made a lot more stuff, a lot faster.

Hey Matsuda you working on anything? I haven't see Toad post in abit I imagine he took a break for the Holidays.
 
And as with any early tech, most casualties would not come from the enemy, but from said tech blowing up in your face. The main danger to the crews of early tanks, for instance, has been said tanks. If you ever were inside a Mark V, you'd have seen the motor is dead centre of the pretty cramped compartment, and it got scaldingly hot - and the ample crew of 8 mostly naked (it was so hot inside you'd pass out otherwise) people had to do their best to never touch it (again, dead centre) under risk of severe burns in a moving vehicle that would meanwhile shake violently. And if you're wondering, yes, they had to move about a lot, since - again - said engine was so noisy that any communication between crew members could only happen by shouting in each others' ears. Oh, and while said engine kinda had an exhaust, the guns didn't - so after each shot, the insides of the tank would fill with gun smoke. So the inevitable heat stroke and burns were compounded by CO poisoning. And remember, this all just from the standard operation of the tank, so I'm not even mentioning the prospect of getting a sharp piece of the hull to the face, which is why those mostly naked people struggling to breathe would still voluntarily wear (and craft ersatz solutions when those weren't available) masks like this to at least protect their faces from bits of hull that would splinter and shoot inside like shrapnel - again, without even any enemy action (don't confuse this with rivets that would shoot inside like shrapnel due to enemy fire :mischief:), just from the thin metal sheets of the hull overheating simply by virtue of the tank getting places.

Walter did you end up deciding to convert those Great Lakes African units? Just curious.
 
Yeah, I did a couple, to use as gunpowder-era cavalry, early and late. Pistolier uses cossack anims, hussar uses Civ4Col dragoon anims.
 

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