Migrant crisis

You're painting all migrants as unfortunate victims of terror. Granted, a portion of them are. However, how many migrate only in order to make more money, a better living, to get Welfare and child bonuses(payments) and other, non terror related, issues?. These people later need to be educated, jobs need to be found for them, and jobs are no longer easy to find in EU. How many of them will turn into unemployed, perhaps even into criminal element?
If migrants come from countries where war/terror/atrocities are common then asylums could/should be granted for them. Others should be sent back, unless they are skilled workers, needed to fill job vacancies in the country.
How hard can it be for EU to have a fleet of ships guarding it's territorial waters in the Mediterranean and not letting through any vessels with illegal migrants on them?

No I'm not. People are seriously discussing the idea of sending everyone who arrives by boat home. Or using military means to prevent all attempts to cross, period. The fact that many are refugees is a very important reason these are bad ideas.

Here is the trick: upon arrival and claim for asylum, people's claims get checked. As is everyone's right under the Refuge Convention. Those who are found not to have a well-founded fear of persecution (Refuge Convention's words) can be sent home. Those who do, they're owed protection.

The fact that not literally every person attempting to cross the Mediterranean in a death-boat will be found to be a refugee really doesn't matter.

The idea that people knowingly risking death are generally doing so for trivial reasons? Nah. I guess it's a coincidence that the numbers have increased so much at the same time Libya has become an active war zone?
 
You're painting all migrants as unfortunate victims of terror. Granted, a portion of them are. However, how many migrate only in order to make more money, a better living, to get Welfare and child bonuses(payments) and other, non terror related, issues?. These people later need to be educated, jobs need to be found for them, and jobs are no longer easy to find in EU. How many of them will turn into unemployed, perhaps even into criminal element?
If migrants come from countries where war/terror/atrocities are common then asylums could/should be granted for them. Others should be sent back, unless they are skilled workers, needed to fill job vacancies in the country.
How hard can it be for EU to have a fleet of ships guarding it's territorial waters in the Mediterranean and not letting through any vessels with illegal migrants on them?

Yes this is what I've seen. I know people who were migrants from Iraqi Kurdistan to Europe several years ago. They put themselves at great risk. One of my friends told me about it. He was smuggled to a certain point and paid several thousands dollars for it. Afterwards, he had to get in touch with another smuggler to get to the next point and spend a lot of money for that and so on. He would do things like, hide underneath a lorry for 8 hours. Eventually he got to England and was placed with a family that helped take care of him. His family was modest but not in extreme poverty and not under threat of persecution or violence. They would sell their car and sell jewelery to help finance this.

Now, in Iraqi Kurdistan, there are workers from Bangladesh, Nepal and Ethiopia who come here to do low wage jobs others won't do. I'm not sure if this was the case back a few years ago when the people I knew went to Europe.

I don't know about the people in question who were in the ship going to Italy. Maybe they were in more desperate circumstances. However, some of the people who pay smugglers to take them into Europe are not in such bad circumstances and when people say they are seeking asylum, some of them may be lying.
 
A thought arose in my head that as our climate, wealth inequality, dwindling resources and various other issues grow in scope we might be seeing a massive increase in this sort of thing in 20 or thirty years. How do you stop say 100,000 people and more crossing all over the border, making ghettos, just trying to survive. I'm kind of concerned now. And a little sad.
 
A thought arose in my head that as our climate, wealth inequality, dwindling resources and various other issues grow in scope we might be seeing a massive increase in this sort of thing in 20 or thirty years. How do you stop say 100,000 people and more crossing all over the border, making ghettos, just trying to survive. I'm kind of concerned now. And a little sad.

There are large refugee camps on the borders of Afghanistan, Burma, Syria, the Congo, Somalia, Bhutan. A hundred thousand people fleeing over a border is not really new.
 
There are large refugee camps on the borders of Afghanistan, Burma, Syria, the Congo, Somalia, Bhutan. A hundred thousand people fleeing over a border is not really new.

The though occurred to me as I was writing it, but I really didn't know what number to put that would prove a logistical and ethical nightmare to handle.
 
Well, Bangladesh has about 200m people and is extremely low-lying and vulnerable to cyclones.
 
How hard can it be for EU to have a fleet of ships guarding it's territorial waters in the Mediterranean and not letting through any vessels with illegal migrants on them?

As someone who participated in naval operations...pretty f'ing hard. Bordering impossible by the narrowest of margins.

How many miles of coastline? You will need 24/7 picket boats at intervals of ten miles...for a start.

How many small boats put out from ports along that coast every day? Day cruisers, fishing vessels, whatever. In areas that are thick with them you need additional patrol craft or you will have 'check one as three pass'.

Your picket boats are going to have to be relieved on station in some cyclic manner, but if you try to do this with simple twelve hour shift crews with eight hours on station that multiplies the number needed by three, and your twelve hour shifting crews are not going to work seven days a week. If you want to avoid that by using long haul ocean going patrol craft they will require a substantial amount of crew, and if you think a picket boat crew is going to put up with weeks on station within sight of shore punctuated by one day liberty calls you are well off the mark. You will need at least 140% of your minimum active number to account for port time.

In short, while it can be done, this plan brings a whole new meaning to the term prohibitively expensive.
 
Just conceptually, the idea of an aggressive all-encompassing naval picket for humanitarian reasons (ie stop drownings) is very strange.

And that's before we get into how desperate people, knowing they face deportation or imprisonment, will react to each naval encounter.
 
Just conceptually, the idea of an aggressive all-encompassing naval picket for humanitarian reasons (ie stop drownings) is very strange.

And that's before we get into how desperate people, knowing they face deportation or imprisonment, will react to each naval encounter.

Stop drownings?!?

You put that many navy guys out puttering about in picket boats you better give them plenty of opportunities to blow stuff up or there is gonna be hell to pay when they hit port.
 
A thought arose in my head that as our climate, wealth inequality, dwindling resources and various other issues grow in scope we might be seeing a massive increase in this sort of thing in 20 or thirty years. How do you stop say 100,000 people and more crossing all over the border, making ghettos, just trying to survive. I'm kind of concerned now. And a little sad.

Yep, that's the future for you. We're going to see a lot more of this, and there's literally no decent solution. All answers are wrong, and no matter what, a country will be hated for whatever it does about this.
 
Hmm.. Well, I had been under the impression that the new Australian model has been leading to success.

Do you think the same issues would arise if they tried this in the Mediterranean?

They wee in those camps because of Labor, but under the current government the number of people in the camps are down massively, but those who committed crimes should be automatically deported to their country of origin. The only reason we have these problems is because of the "compassion" of the left. As a result people smugglers got rich and over one thousand people at the bottom of the ocean. Also that report should have been well before it was eventually released. Basically the timing of the release wa politically motivated. But not one boat has arrived in Australian territory since the current government has taken it' stance on border protection.

I believe the current refugee convention is massively out of date that it doesn't serve modern needs..
 
Ah good here comes c_h defend the indefensible again. Real consistent christian sticking "compassion" in scare quotes there hey.

Not to mention the level of persnickety partisan priggishness it takes to find daylight between the "lock refugees up in offshore prisons" policies of Labor and the "lock refugees up in offshore prisons" policies of the Liberal Nationals.
 
I don't know about the people in question who were in the ship going to Italy. Maybe they were in more desperate circumstances. However, some of the people who pay smugglers to take them into Europe are not in such bad circumstances and when people say they are seeking asylum, some of them may be lying.

Which is a matter for immigration services to decide. What people think about the motices of such immigrants is quite irrelevant.

Yeah, gotta keep the capitalists out.

:lol:
 
Yep, that's the future for you. We're going to see a lot more of this, and there's literally no decent solution. All answers are wrong, and no matter what, a country will be hated for whatever it does about this.
This.

Just today there were news that mine is among the world's least receptive countries as far as immigration is concerned (123rd among 133, iirc). I fully believe so.
Some... no, most online comments regarding the situation on Med are incredibly callous and I want to argue from the humanitarian angle and point out the moral duty we have towards legitimate refugees, Estonia itself having been a source of refugees during last century.

On the other hand, coming to CFC and reading this...
Well, Bangladesh has about 200m people and is extremely low-lying and vulnerable to cyclones.
...I want to argue from the other angle and say "precisely".
There are an estimated 50m refugees in the world, +33m internally displaced people, and those number only climb higher. How many could e.g. Australia accept, should things go really badly in Bangladesh?
 
I suspect if 200m people flee from anywhere all at one, not much any state does will be able to do much of anything to prevent that from happening. Might as well ask what a country will do if an asteroid hits it.
 
This.

Just today there were news that mine is among the world's least receptive countries as far as immigration is concerned (123rd among 133, iirc). I fully believe so.
Some... no, most online comments regarding the situation on Med are incredibly callous and I want to argue from the humanitarian angle and point out the moral duty we have towards legitimate refugees, Estonia itself having been a source of refugees during last century.

On the other hand, coming to CFC and reading this...

...I want to argue from the other angle and say "precisely".
There are an estimated 50m refugees in the world, +33m internally displaced people, and those number only climb higher. How many could e.g. Australia accept, should things go really badly in Bangladesh?
Mark my words, this century is going to be hellish. And Western nations are going to face impossible dilemmas in dealing with all these refugees from climate change and conflict. If they strongly restrict immigration like the right wants, they're called racist and evil, and they are leaving millions of people to suffer. If they open the floodgates and let literally anyone in like some on the left want, there is no way their welfare systems or cultures could possibly support the tens of millions of people who want in (and looking at how the global population continues to rise as climate change and rising sea levels threaten the carrying capacities of the very places with the most serious population increases, there will be a whole lot of people who can't or won't stay in those places like Bangladesh anymore). If Western countries take a middling approach, they'll be hated for letting in both too many people and not enough.

Note I only said "Western nations." Places like Japan are blessed with the ability to be as xenophobic and closed to immigration as they please without getting a word of criticism, even though they could economically benefit from immigration due to a rapidly aging population. Because reasons.
 
Well lets say you opened your door and welcomed all into your house, but beyond merely letting them in you also provided them food and necessities, how long do you think your finances could take the strain of supporting people who contribute nothing to the finances? A country is no different, there is a finite limit of resources and frankly many western budgets are close to critical mass as it is.

What makes you think that migrants, who are overwhelmingly young and fit, contribute nothing to a country's finances? The reverse seems far more likely. Migrants are very seldom the old and infirm, who represent the greatest drain on resources.

With almost every migrant there comes a pair of hands.

But the question remains unanswered as far as I can tell, from an admittedly cursory look at the thread so far: by what right does one group of people lay claim to a geographical area and deny access to anyone else?

I know very well that that's been the history of the world so far (before you tell me so), but the rationale behind it seems to be entirely absent, and there's no reason to think that this state of affairs should continue indefinitely.

Now, I don't claim that maintaining open borders mightn't produce some difficulties (and, never fear, it's not going to happen any time soon), but it's an ideal to aim for where the conditions around the world make moving from a low wealth area to a high wealth one not quite the overwhelmingly enticing prospect (to the extent that people think it worthwhile risking their lives in leaky boats) that it is at present. And more a matter of just fancying a bit of a change of scene.

Also, no doubt a lot of economic migrants have been misled as to the state of the roads in Western countries: not all of them are literally paved with gold. Apparently.

One way, of course, of ensuring a more equitable distribution of wealth would be to throw all the borders open immediately. Not everyone would move immediately, but maybe enough would so that very quickly they'd be writing home to their friends and relatives to tell them that it wasn't worth it. People in the West would certainly not like it. And, as I say, it's not going to happen. And people will continue to drown in the Mediterranean.

The only possible alternative (to opening borders, or allowing people to drown in the sea) is to so arrange matters that the economic situation of potential migrants in their countries of origin is improved to the extent that they don't consider it worth migrating. And is this a realistic possibility, do you think? Given the history of Western involvement in the 3rd World so far? It hasn't been good. It's been a history of exploitation and corruption (not all of it originating in the West) from start to finish.

Anyway, that's my opinion, more or less expressed badly. I didn't, and don't, expect anyone to agree with it. After all, perhaps what's at stake is the wealth of everyone in the developed world. And for some reason people feel threatened by the idea of being no better off than other people.
 
I have this picture in my mind of a Diamondian collapse, where failed, imploding societies flood the less-failed societies nearby with refugees, causing them to fail as well.

Anyway, I've not been on CFC for a long time, so I just (in the best of traditions) skimmed this thread and feel entitled to comment as if I were an expert. So...

... in my opinion, we need to set up some plan for the above-mentioned potential future. As of yet, for Europe to accept and perhaps absorb several hundred thousand refugees from a single migratory wave (let's call it the "Arab Spring" wave and cry bitter tears) is pretty feasible. There will be the usual squabbling in the EU about who should bear what portion of the burden, but in principle, it's doable and not even that much expensive.

HOWEVER... there are political and practical realities to consider. Chiefly, the European populace is by and large hostile to the idea of unrestricted migration from the third world. In Britain, they constantly bit-- about those "Eastern Europeans" without whom their economy would grind to a halt, and they are among the most educated and skilled migrant workforces you can imagine, not to mention very easy to integrate due to largely shared Western viewpoints on key cultural "rich points". In other words, Poles won't be demanding Sharia courts, unlike certain other groups of migrants coming from North Africa or the Middle East.

In the mind of an average citizen, there is not much of a difference between "refugee" and "immigrant". Why? is a good question, because there should be. In the olden days of Cold War, refugees were people from behind the Iron Curtain fleeing totalitarian oppression. Nobody much resisted their arrival, considering they were mostly Western, educated, willing to obey the host country's rules and customs, and had a pretty solid cause for fleeing their home country. Also, the Communist governments obligingly co-operated with the West in preventing mass migration by, you know, putting electric fences patrolled by armed guards on their borders and shooting people for trying to leave the Socialist paradise.

After the Cold War, "refugee" came to mean "someone claiming asylum in order to immigrate to Europe for work". Before somebody screams "xenophobia", this view is not wholly ungrounded; abuse of the system indeed happens and will continue to happen so long as there is incentive for people from poorer countries to try to immigrate to richer countries against the will of the citizens of said richer countries.

Secondly, even if all refugees were legit and we indeed accepted our moral obligation to shelter them, where are the limits? At what point can a country say "No more, we are full, we can't take more people in before the strain breaks our backs"? Don't scoff, it's a legitimate question. Sure, countries like Germany can easily afford to take in more migrants and their avoidance of responsibility and shifting it to the more exposed frontline states is disingenuous. But what about countries like Malta? Cyprus? Or even medium sized ones, like, say, Portugal or Sweden? How many refugees can they realistically take in before their living standard starts falling and the side effect of rapid immigration of people from often completely different cultural backgrounds leads to a collapse of social cohesion?

Now extend this to Europe as a whole -- how many people is Europe obliged to take in and at what risk? At what point does one moral imperative, to provide for the well being of its CITIZENS outweigh the other moral imperative, that of assisting NON-CITIZENS in need?

This is what we need to answer, IMO, and make adequate plans for the future in which this question may become unpleasantly topical.

In the meantime, I'd say it should be made clear that asylum in Europe doesn't equal permanent residency permit. If the situation gets better, these people must return. If they ask to stay, standard cost-benefit approaches to immigration should apply: i.e., those who can benefit the society in a tangible way and are not likely to represent a burden can stay, the rest will be repatriated. At the very least, it should calm the public a little, knowing that refugees won't automatically become immigrants.

---
Recommended post:

Mark my words, this century is going to be hellish. And Western nations are going to face impossible dilemmas in dealing with all these refugees from climate change and conflict. If they strongly restrict immigration like the right wants, they're called racist and evil, and they are leaving millions of people to suffer. If they open the floodgates and let literally anyone in like some on the left want, there is no way their welfare systems or cultures could possibly support the tens of millions of people who want in (and looking at how the global population continues to rise as climate change and rising sea levels threaten the carrying capacities of the very places with the most serious population increases, there will be a whole lot of people who can't or won't stay in those places like Bangladesh anymore). If Western countries take a middling approach, they'll be hated for letting in both too many people and not enough.

Note I only said "Western nations." Places like Japan are blessed with the ability to be as xenophobic and closed to immigration as they please without getting a word of criticism, even though they could economically benefit from immigration due to a rapidly aging population. Because reasons.
 
With almost every migrant there comes a pair of hands.
Single worst problem in Europe is unemployment. Adding low-qualified hands isn't exactly making things better.

Single most divisive problem in Europe is already immigration. Increasing the strain isn't exactly making things better.
 
Top Bottom