Moscow Mayor Promises a Winter Without Snow

[Terxpahseyton]

I thought we've discussed this BS already and you agreed that you have nothing to back up this claim.

It's called contemporary witnesses and historic accounting for the past. I know this is something very alien to Russia, but please stop the denial. S*** happens.
@jUmpSt0p You are right that rapes are a normal companion of war. That does not mean that it can not be beyond average madness.

 

[red_elk]

It's called contemporary witnesses and historic accounting for the past. I know this is something very alien to Russia, but please stop the denial. S*** happens.

You want me to stop denial of this:
"Actually the only way Russian men got their hands on German women was mass raping."?
Or you can say something constructive?

Because the only way to answer to these kind of messages would be
"Actually the only way German men got their hands on Russian children was medical experiments in concentration camps."
Yeah, stop the denial. Please.

 

[GinandTonic]

/Thread Godwinded

 

[Terxpahseyton]

You want me to stop denial of this:
"Actually the only way Russian men got their hands on German women was mass raping."?
Or you can say something constructive?

Because the only way to answer to these kind of messages would be
"Actually the only way German men got their hands on Russian children was medical experiments in concentration camps."
Yeah, stop the denial. Please.

Man you totally lost sight of context.
If I write in some thread something tasteless as the post I responded to you are invited to post exactly that.

 

[red_elk]

Man you totally lost sight of context.
If I write in some thread something tasteless as the post I responded to you are invited to post exactly that.

Ok, got your point.
But you did the same mistake when you asked me to stop denying something. Read the message which I was replying to and pay attention to the things which I was actually denying (such as rapes, commonly accepted and "almost institutionalized" in Red Army)

If you are interested in my opinion on this topic, here is the link to discussion (this one was unusually polite and constructive)
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=329891&page=10

 

[TheLastOne36]

/Thread Godwinded

It hasn't been Michal Gadwynned yet though.

 

[Aleksey_aka_al]

False; as the guy who spent hours correcting apologists on their covering up of Red Army rapes:

Of course rapes happened under the German armed forces; howevwer, no where enarly as much as by the Red Army.
For the Germans, rape was a court-martialable offence, at least partly due to the disgrace of sexual relations with the Untermensch.

For the Red Army, rape was almost institutionalised, and was a commonly accepted way of "comradely fraternization".

British armed forces didn't do so much rapes, because they were sitting on their albion and had mass erectile dysfunction because of the fear of axis and appearance of British women.

 

[nonconformist]

I thought we've discussed this BS already and you agreed that you have nothing to back up this claim. The discussion was about two articles in British newspapers and "leaflet", encouraging Soviet soldiers to rape German women - leaflet which was mentioned in one book of British author, but nobody has seen original.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8321229&postcount=223

No, we came to the conclusion that one leaflet stating "take the German women as lawful booty" hcouldn't be found.

However, it is a fact that Ilya Ehrenberg encouraged rape within the ranks of the Red Army.

It is a fact that the Red Army rampaged from the Caspian to Berlin raping women in its path.

It is a fact that over 100,000 women were rped in Berlin in the space of a week or so.

It is a fact that rape was an institutionalised part of the Red Army post 1944, and that a blind eye was turned to it.

 

[nonconformist]

British armed forces didn't do so much rapes, because they were sitting on their albion and had mass erectile dysfunction because of the fear of axis and appearance of British women.

Well, what can I say?

Seeing as we didn't invade Poland in 1939, unlike our illustrious Soviet allies, we didn't massacre the Poles, and didn't invade half of the countries surrounding us

Seeing as we were, in 1940, the only country at war with Nazi Germany, while the Soviets played silly buggers, while being Allied to Germany

Seeing as the English held off the Germans right until they invaded Russia at which point the Soviets finally declared war on them

I don't think that's a very apt comparison

 

[Terxpahseyton]

Ok, got your point.
But you did the same mistake when you asked me to stop denying something. Read the message which I was replying to and pay attention to the things which I was actually denying (such as rapes, commonly accepted and "almost institutionalized" in Red Army)

If you are interested in my opinion on this topic, here is the link to discussion (this one was unusually polite and constructive)
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=329891&page=10

I don't know how it exactly happened. I only know that it did, that it was officially a crime and that it must have been accepted nevertheless considering what happened.
Might take a look when having the time.

 

[Aleksey_aka_al]

Seeing as we didn't invade Poland in 1939, unlike our illustrious Soviet allies, we didn't massacre the Poles, and didn't invade half of the countries surrounding us

Right. You were already too exhausted with massacring other nations. So you used your old royal tactics - spies and bribes.

Seeing as we were, in 1940, the only country at war with Nazi Germany, while the Soviets played silly buggers, while being Allied to Germany

Seeing as the English held off the Germans right until they invaded Russia at which point the Soviets finally declared war on them

Poor continentals, they had loosed everything waiting the British to help them, so Britain became the only one left...

In the June of 1941 Nazi Germany had 214 divisions and 7 brigade, 152 and 2 were in the East against Soviet Union.

 

[red_elk]

No, we came to the conclusion that one leaflet stating "take the German women as lawful booty" hcouldn't be found.

Right. Unlike many other propaganda materials and leaflets, nobody has seen original of this one.
Moreover, it would be extremely stupid, for Soviets, to distribute materials which would demoralize Soviet troops and destroy reputation of the USSR.

However, it is a fact that Ilya Ehrenberg encouraged rape within the ranks of the Red Army.

This is not a fact, this is a lie.
Two most famous articles of Ehrenburg which caused controversy:
1. The article "Kill!"
Encouraged Red Army soldiers to take revenge on Germans for their atrocities, used the words from K. Simonov's poem. Published in 1942, when the only "available for revenge" Germans were soldiers of invading army.
Nothing about rapes, women, "lawful booty" or any similar kind of crap.

2. The article "Enough!"
Published in April 1945. Ehrenburg was criticized by Stalin for painting entire German nation in black in this article, which was unnecessary at the end of war. The general tone of the article is much less aggressive than in previous one.

You can use online translators to understand what these articles are about. Try to find where Ehrenburg encouraged rapes, or find another article of him where he did so.

It is a fact that the Red Army rampaged from the Caspian to Berlin raping women in its path.

It is a fact that British and American troops rampaged in Western Germany and Japan, raping women on its path.
It is also a fact that Red Army went from Caspian to Berlin, repelling invaders and liberating Soviet and European territories from Nazis.
Do you like how these facts sound?
Can we get back to normal language now?

It is a fact that over 100,000 women were rped in Berlin in the space of a week or so.

May I ask you, where did you get this number from?
(Yes, I remember what was written in Guardian and Telegraph. Two millions of raped German women, ages from 8 to 80. Army of murderers, rapists and marauders. And obviously, glorious British soldiers were totally different. British newspapers cannot lie, I understand.)

It is a fact that rape was an institutionalised part of the Red Army post 1944, and that a blind eye was turned to it.

What you mean as institutionalized?
- It did not officially considered as a crime?
- Soviet soldier had quota to rape N German women for a month period?
- Something else?

 

[red_elk]

I don't know how it exactly happened. I only know that it did, that it was officially a crime and that it must have been accepted nevertheless considering what happened.
Might take a look when having the time.

There were lots of crimes and this is recognized.
What is not recognized, are claims about official Soviet propaganda encouraging Red Army to do crimes, about millions of raped German women, and so-called "citations" of Ehrenburg like this one:

Spoiler :

"Kill. In Germany, nothing is guiltless. Neither the living nor the yet unborn. ... Crush forever in its den the fascist beast. Violently break the racial pride of the German women. Take them as your lawful booty. Kill, you gallant Red soldiers!"

 

[TheLastOne36]

Seeing as we didn't invade Poland in 1939, unlike our illustrious Soviet allies, we didn't massacre the Poles, and didn't invade half of the countries surrounding us

By the way, thank you(and France) for saving us.

 

[yesboii]

Okay, none of you three can match Japan, so stop squabbling.

 

[nonconformist]

Right. You were already too exhausted with massacring other nations. So you used your old royal tactics - spies and bribes.

Typical Soviet mindlessness..."And you hang negroes!"

For a nation which annexed Lithuania, Estonia, Belarussia, Latvia, KArelia, etc. you're in no position to talk of Imperialism.

Poor continentals, they had loosed everything waiting the British to help them, so Britain became the only one left...

The BEF was one of the major constituents of the fight in Western Europe, and Britain had no real commitment to fighting in Europe other than treaties.

Whereas your boys raped Poland.

In the June of 1941 Nazi Germany had 214 divisions and 7 brigade, 152 and 2 were in the East against Soviet Union.

In the May of 1941, Nazi Germany and the USSr were allies

 

[nonconformist]

Red Elk:


I have given my sources, and defended those I feel valid.

100,000 was an estimate based on the number of women who complained of rape.

Etc.

I'm just gonna do the usual, and trot out the memoirs of Vassili Grossman:

Grossman, and these are direct quotes from him:

He told his daughter
The Red Army "changed for the wrose as soon as it crossed the border"

He wrote:

"We enter a house, a puddle of blood on the floor, and in it, an old man, shot by looters"

"Horror in the eyes of women and girls"

"A German woman, dressed in black, with dead lips, is speaking in a barely audible rustling voice. She has brought with her a teenage girl with black, velvety bruises on her face and neck, a swollen eye, with terrible bruises on her hands. The girl was raped by a soldier from the signals company with army headquarters.
He is also here, pink-cheeked, fat-faced, sleepy. The commandant is interrogating him without much enthusiasm"

"Horrifying things are happening to German women. An educated German whiose wife has received "new visitors" is explaining....she has already been raped by ten men today. The lady is present.
Women's screams are heard from open windows.

Soviet girls liberated from [concentration] camps are suffering a lot now. They are hiding in our correspondent's room.
During the night, we are woken by screams; one of the correspondents couldn't resist the temptation. A noisy discussion ensues, then order is re-established.

A story abotu a breast-feeing mother beiung raped in her barn. Her relatives came to the barn and asked her attackers to let her have a break, because the hungry baby was crying the whole time"

"Liberated Soviet girls often complain about being raped by our soldiers. One girl said to me, crying 'he was an old man, older than my father"

"A young Frenchman [POW from 1940][ said to me "Monsieur, I love your army, and that's why it's very painful for me to see its attitude towards girls and women"

"There are many young women crying. Apparently, they have been made to suffer by our soldiers"

 

[Aleksey_aka_al]

For a nation which annexed Lithuania, Estonia, Belarussia, Latvia, KArelia, etc. you're in no position to talk of Imperialism.

What? Karelia, Belarussia??? LOL . You should read tabloids more carefully.

In the May of 1941, Nazi Germany and the USSr were allies

Is that another claim of British scientists? Tell me moar.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

For a nation which annexed Lithuania, Estonia, Belarussia, Latvia, KArelia, etc. you're in no position to talk of Imperialism.

For a nation which helped create those artificial nations by arming minority nationalists to overthrow their popular soviets, you're one to whine about foreign intervention.

 

[red_elk]

For a nation which annexed Lithuania, Estonia, Belarussia, Latvia, KArelia, etc. you're in no position to talk of Imperialism.

Then you, Brits, are in no position to criticize anybody for any annexation at all.

Whereas your boys raped Poland.

Using your terminology, you guys raped half of the world and continue doing that today.

Red Elk:
I have given my sources, and defended those I feel valid.
I'm just gonna do the usual, and trot out the memoirs of Vassili Grossman:

1. I did a brief search in google about this citation and found just a few similar publications in other forums. If you read this yourself, can you provide information about this book, or at least its title?
2. Neither of sources about Vassily Grossman mentioned such scandalous anti-Soviet publication. English and Russian wiki articles about him also don't contain this citation or anything similar to it.
3. Finally, this citation doesn't say anything about Soviet propaganda encouraging rapes, and how they were "institutionalized" in Red Army.