Moving beyond air-power spam

[lostlocus]

I actually only found alpha centauri a couple weeks ago on GOG.com, so the game is relatively new to me, I'm learning the mechanics and whatnot. I had a question about a phenomenon that has repeated on nearly all of my games. I'll describe below, but feel free to jump right to the TLDR if you wish.

First off, I'm so far Gaian all the way. I much prefer psi-combat and like Dierdre's bonuses. Thing is, once I get into the warmaking phase of the early/mid game (about when I meet the Hive or Believers, basically), I find that my military is kind of worthless until I get air power. Worms by themselves are too slow on offense, conventional units on the defense can't keep up with hive numbers or believer bonuses, and rovers have this ridiculous tendency to just die as soon as I attack anything with them, making them pointless for interdiction of enemy forces. On top of this, developing my worm power kills my ability to make decent conventional troops. However, once I get air power, the whole game changes and once I get about 10 or so needlejets flying I can scour the continent of enemy opposition and finally catch a break from constantly fighting for my life. Then, once I get 'copters, nothing in the game can stand against me because I can mow down entire columns of enemy troops before they can menace my bases. Air cover also makes my worms a lot more relevant for city assaults, of course. I do know that Gaian bonuses make it harder for me to make competitive conventional troops, but it seems that every game I've played (on talent and librarian difficulty) follows the same trend - barely survive 'till the midgame, then suddenly gain the ability to annihilate everything with jets and 'copters, and the rest of the game is a relative breeze 'till ascension.

The big question/TLDR is this: am I missing something, or is air power just that overpowered - and at the same time, just so vital that a hybrid/builder faction like the Gaians simply gets that big a boost from it? Or is it just unwise to focus on worms to the exclusion of buffing up my conventional troops? I'd read that, if weaker than your opposition, worms are the way to go, so how does that fit in? I almost feel like I'm winning via exploit because the trend of all my games is so very pronounced, so opinions on this would be appreciated.

 

[Cryopyre]

Protip: Don't be a plebeian

 

[Buster's Uncle]

Cry, that's not cool, man.

...

Air power is indeed just that overpowered. You're about 100 times smarter than the AI, and the more options a weapon gives, and range is the biggest option-giver, the more advantage in using them sensibly you have over the AI.

 

[lostlocus]

Cryopere: thanks for that.

Buster: that's a good point. I am definitely having fun in this game, but the ai seems dumber than a box of rocks. Allied Lal almost cost me a game recently because he parked a unit on a 1-square spit of land that cut my holdings in half, and I couldn't get reinforcements to my anti-Believer war zone without starting a(nother) war. He left it there for 50. Friggin'. Turns.

Haha...maybe I should just go back to galciv 2

 

[Buster's Uncle]

I don't know that much about GC2, 'cept that it has a lot of cool buildings, but I seriously doubt it's going to be around for as long as AC.

 

[Doctor Phibes]

Just played a couple of games after a couple of years break, first at Thinker level because I thought I'd have forgotten how to play. No chance - even moving up to Transcend, once you get to air power and especially choppers, it's a cakewalk. And I play in a very casual, almost slapdash, manner.

There's just too many things in the game that the AI doesn't know how to use. It doesn't prioritise getting the extremely powerful Cloudbase Academy, which I do, usually picking up the very handy Cyborg Factory on the way past. And it will build a few units with drop pods, but have you ever seen it use them? Never builds anything with clean reactors - oh well, it's a long list.

In part, the AI seems dumber because I've been playing Civ4 a lot. Civ4 AI isn't any kind of genius, but it knows to assemble quite scary Stacks of Doom before it DOWs. SMACX AI goes to war on a whim and mostly attacks with groups of one or two units.

Still, there's a strange charm to SMACX that keeps me coming back to it.

 

[Buster's Uncle]

It's not strange. AC tells a story and the leaders have individual personalities, something the mainline Civ games just don't offer.


You know, I've never thought much about the air power thing, because I don't use air power much - by the time it's strong enough, I don't need it for defense, and I don't play for conquest victories. [shrugs]

 

[Doctor Phibes]

It's not strange. AC tells a story and the leaders have individual personalities, something the mainline Civ games just don't offer.

Agreed. And it's also got great literary and scientific quotes. And fine voice acting. But sometimes it's much more like watching a repeat of an old well-loved TV show than playing a game...

You know, I've never thought much about the air power thing, because I don't use air power much - by the time it's strong enough, I don't need it for defense, and I don't play for conquest victories. [shrugs]

I'm not a warmonger either. But choppers are the absolute best defensive tool you can have to defend what you just built up to that point. Oh, and I also play Huge maps, by the way, so most of the game is beating the other's econs because you can't get at them easily (until drop pods with orbital insertion). Unfortunately that's pretty easy.

(Of course choppers become offensive with the subsequent revenge where you double the size of your faction and acquire a bunch of secret projects you've been coveting, but heck, they DOWed on me - I still like to be down as Noble at the end of the game...)

 

[Buster's Uncle]

Sure. I let them declare war on me, and then wipe them out if they won't submission pact. I just micromanage so much that huge maps aren't practical, and never need air power that bad. Once you have magtubes and enough formers, ground troops are better.

 

[Cryopyre]

The game is horribly broken once you know how to exploit its flaws. But I keep playing for the immersive setting. I get a chill listening to Sheng-ji Yang talk about his empire, I secretly fear Morgan's monopoly, and I always imagine the comfort of Gaia's gardens.

I play because of the setting. Because this video chills me and yet this video makes me yearn for the future and because at the end of the day who wouldn't want to live among the stars.

And for that reason, back to programming my SMAC roguelike!

 

[Doctor Phibes]

The game is horribly broken once you know how to exploit its flaws. But I keep playing for the immersive setting. I get a chill listening to Sheng-ji Yang talk about his empire, I secretly fear Morgan's monopoly, and I always imagine the comfort of Gaia's gardens.

I play because of the setting. Because this video chills me and yet this video makes me yearn for the future and because at the end of the day who wouldn't want to live among the stars.

And for that reason, back to programming my SMAC roguelike!

Indeed, and your RPG sounds like a great idea. (It's asking a lot graphically, but it would be great to see Planet in 1st Person as in TES games. After all SMACX and Morrowind do have fungus in common...)

 

[Cryopyre]

Indeed, and your RPG sounds like a great idea. (It's asking a lot graphically, but it would be great to see Planet in 1st Person as in TES games. After all SMACX and Morrowind do have fungus in common...)

Actually, for better or worse, I'm making it a roguelike with the graphics denoted with a tileset. Firstly because it's far easier to program, secondly because my graphics card is fried and I can't play any games that use a graphics cards anymore.

So it'll have a 2 dimensional layout (even if it mathematically is dealing with 3 dimensions). Think of Dungeons and Dragons or Dwarf Fortress.

 

[Doctor Phibes]

Actually, for better or worse, I'm making it a roguelike with the graphics denoted with a tileset. Firstly because it's far easier to program, secondly because my graphics card is fried and I can't play any games that use a graphics cards anymore.

So it'll have a 2 dimensional layout (even if it mathematically is dealing with 3 dimensions). Think of Dungeons and Dragons or Dwarf Fortress.

Yeah, figured that, of course. But one can dream, eh? Should be fun in any case...

 

[mintcandy]

Hmmm...it's good to know that I'm not the only one who feels that most Alpha Centauri games inevitably devolve into a war for aerial supremacy.

 

[AdamCrock]

In my opinion The Free Drones R best. They get the best late abillity and are able to reach -50% mineral costs with no big deal (Democracy with planned Eudaimonia) - population boom guaranteed. I have always practiced the "psi copter" (multiple attacks per turn) with an morale upgrade If You can get to dream twister all the better Sure the drones are difficult to play with at the beggining but they are unsurpassed at a late game At the beggining of my journey with Alpha Centauri I've always considered Univeristy to be the best but +20% research while quite powerfull at the beggining is dimmed by -20%mineral costs for everything at late game Data Angels are very cool for RPG experience ^^

 

[green1]

If you use Kyrub's AI patch, the AI is a bit better.

That said, there have been many approaches to dealing with air power.

One famous approach was Chuft's on WPC that limited the range on air. Not a big fan of that one.

My solution would be to handle airpower the way Civ 4 does using Civ 4's mission system where you do not have to worry about stupid micromangement like fuel. Interceptors go on "patrol" to intercept and you "bomb" land units. The air does not automatically destroy land unit. Copters should not have near unlimited attacks and losing health for movement is just wierd.

This solution would even equalize Cloudbase Academy if not for sattelites. I do have BIG issues with the way both SMAX and Civ handles low earth orbit warfare, too. But, that is a seperate gripe for another thread. NO game has EVER handled sattelites and moon-earth orbital warfare right to this day.

Unfortunately, that solution would take substantial code re-writing to be realistic.

 

[AdamCrock]

If you use Kyrub's AI patch, the AI is a bit better.

That said, there have been many approaches to dealing with air power.

One famous approach was Chuft's on WPC that limited the range on air. Not a big fan of that one.

My solution would be to handle airpower the way Civ 4 does using Civ 4's mission system where you do not have to worry about stupid micromangement like fuel. Interceptors go on "patrol" to intercept and you "bomb" land units. The air does not automatically destroy land unit. Copters should not have near unlimited attacks and losing health for movement is just wierd.

This solution would even equalize Cloudbase Academy if not for sattelites. I do have BIG issues with the way both SMAX and Civ handles low earth orbit warfare, too. But, that is a seperate gripe for another thread. NO game has EVER handled sattelites and moon-earth orbital warfare right to this day.

Unfortunately, that solution would take substantial code re-writing to be realistic.

I actually like to micromange my units The Civ 4 system seems to be dumbed down to basics. You do not need to be a super-computer to count to Your fuel limits hehe

 

[green1]

I actually like to micromange my units The Civ 4 system seems to be dumbed down to basics. You do not need to be a super-computer to count to Your fuel limits hehe

I hear you. But, you got to agree the Civ 4 air system is more balanced by treating air attacks like artillery. The "mission" system is just one of those quality of life things.

Civ 4, though, is still a complex and good game at it's core and any remake of SMAC could benefit from adopting at least some Civ 4 innovations.

 

[AdamCrock]

I hear you. But, you got to agree the Civ 4 air system is more balanced by treating air attacks like artillery. The "mission" system is just one of those quality of life things.

Civ 4, though, is still a complex and good game at it's core and any remake of SMAC could benefit from adopting at least some Civ 4 innovations.

Yeah Mission concept is better that straight attack but still I feel nostalgic about the old school whooping