Mustafa Kemal Atatürk

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Fox Mccloud

Fox Mccloud

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Many seem to credit him with bringing democracy to Turkey, so this may seem like a stupid question, but.....

Do you think he might actually have been a dictator? I mean he did such things as Banning the Fez, Changing the Alphabet, forced women to remove the hijab, he forced imams to say prayers and make the call to prayer in Turkish instead of Arabic, edited the Turkish language, even made a law on family names, etc.

Doesn't that sound at all dictatorial?
 
Turkey's current problems living up to what the EU considers minimum standards for a member state has a lot to do with what Kemal created. Emphasis was always on being a Modern, and Turkish, state, but democracy and civil rights wasn't The Top Priority.

In some ways Kemalist Turkey was perhaps more like the liberal dictatorships of Central America, if one looks for something comparable?
 
He was a dictator, but if not for him, Turkey would be a poor backward country with half of its current territory
 
Obviously yes.

Ataturk made Turkey modern country. I think that the Turks with good reason consider him as a national hero. He Turkey more European and social country. May be he was a dictator, but not bigger than a Sultan ;)
But i am interested to hear the oppinion of the Turks.
 
Atatürk was one of those few great modern dictators. True that he created many problems too, but had it not been for him, Turkey would probably be Iran or Syria 2.
 
Ataturk was a great leader and creator of modern Turkey. He defended Turkish territorial sovergnity and restored it. He modernized the nation. A dictaor he may have been but a nessecary dictator at the time and he achieved many great things. He's not called Ataturk for no reason after all.
 
Adler17 said:
But then we do have to answer the question:

Are dictators, under certain circumstances, good for a nation?

Adler
Click to expand...

Off course they are. Liberal Dictatorship often leads to relative safety (as long as you're not a dissident) The problem of good dictators is that they tend to become selfish, aggresive etc. later on.
 
silver 2039 said:
A dictaor he may have been but a nessecary dictator at the time and he achieved many great things.
Click to expand...

Necessary? Was it really "nessecary" to change the Turkish language? Was it "nessecary" to ban traditional Turkish clothes?

Making Turkey a modern democracy was great and all, but I doubt changing Turkey's culture like he did was "nessecary".
 
Knight-Dragon said:
He was a nationalist who left behind a stronger Turkey, than the one he found.
Click to expand...

..and Modenr Turkey is what these days? Begging to be allowed into the EU and consistently declined? What a great powerful country!:lol:
 
Fox Mccloud said:
Necessary? Was it really "nessecary" to change the Turkish language? Was it "nessecary" to ban traditional Turkish clothes?

Making Turkey a modern democracy was great and all, but I doubt changing Turkey's culture like he did was "nessecary".
Click to expand...

If it wasn't Ataturk Turkey would now be a country, like the most of other muslim states. You know terrorism, fanatism..
Ataturk brought Turkey closer to Europe.

I don't see any changing of the Turkish culture. The yashmaks and the turbans which he baned, were part of the muslim religion. And i am not sure but i think he banned them only in Istanbul.
 
Fox Mccloud said:
..and Modenr Turkey is what these days? Begging to be allowed into the EU and consistently declined? What a great powerful country!:lol:
Click to expand...

And what would be have been Turkey without Ataturk ? One of thise close and middle east states, in which there are usualy "peacekeaping missions",terrorism,muslim fanatism. May be it would be even worse, because as dar as i know there aren't any rich deposits of oil in Turkey, as there is on most of the middle east states.
 
Without Atatürk there prolly wouldn't be something like the present Turkey.

Good or bad? Depends on who you ask. The Aegean coast might be Greek, there could be an independant Kurdistan, Armenia might be a lot bigger, etc.
 
I personaly as a Bulgarian feel that it would be better without Ataturk, becasue in those times(and not only in those) Bulgaria and Turkey was enemies. But Ataturk was certainly good for the Turks.
 
If one looks at what state Ottoman Turkey was in 1923 (After World War I, before the last Ottoman Sultan was overthrown.), Ataturk did plenty of good in modernising (Now days you might not see Turkey as too modern nation, but at the time.) Turkey and stabilizing the nation from what it had been.

..and Modenr Turkey is what these days? Begging to be allowed into the EU and consistently declined? What a great powerful country! :lol:
Click to expand...

You can hardly blame Ataturk for the lacks of his successors.
 
When Ataturk lives he answers that question too many times. But my English is not so well. I will try to translate one of them.

I'm not a dictator. They say that i have the power. Yes it is true. I have to power to do anything i want because i don't know how to be merciless and constrained. I want to rule by winning hearts not breaking 'em. - Atatürk
I'm a Turk and i proud of Atatürk. He is the greatest leader at the universe. He loves his nation more then anything but he also loves all humans.

Just read this and decide. He said that to Anzacs who invaded Turkey with Britons:

"Those heroes that shed their blood
and lost their lives...
You are now lying in the soil of a friendly country,
therefore ret in peace.
There is no difference between the Jonnies
and the Mehmets to us where they lie side by side.
Here in this country of ours...
You, the mothers,
who sent their sons from far away countries
wipe away your tears.
Your sons are now lying in our bossom
and are in peace.
After having lost their lives on this land they have
become our sons as well."

Mustafa Kemal ATATURK

ANZAC Memorial, 1934.
 
Mete said:
I'm a Turk and i proud of Atatürk. He is the greatest leader at the universe. He loves his nation more then anything but he also loves all humans.
Click to expand...
That's a problem common in many dictators, cult of personality. I don't think the way Ataturk is almost worshipped is healthy.


Mete said:
"Those heroes that shed their blood
and lost their lives...
You are now lying in the soil of a friendly country,
therefore ret in peace.
There is no difference between the Jonnies
and the Mehmets to us where they lie side by side.
Here in this country of ours...
You, the mothers,
who sent their sons from far away countries
wipe away your tears.
Your sons are now lying in our bossom
and are in peace.
After having lost their lives on this land they have
become our sons as well."

Mustafa Kemal ATATURK

ANZAC Memorial, 1934.
Click to expand...
That is indeed a great speech, very magnanimous :goodjob:
 
Hey, they are not satisfied with current state of Turkey. It doesn't mean they are not satisfied with Ataturk!
:)
Though I know some which had mixed feelings about him - the religious ones
 
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