National College First Question

[Celevin]

Actually yeah, Babylon's early GS on the National College city would be an amazing start... That's a lot of science.

 

[YYY]

I've never really felt the NC-first was a hard and fast great opener. It's an amazing opener when the situation is right, but the build/tech order is far from rigid and there are a lot of situations where it simply doesn't make sense. I think a lot of the people who uniformly denounce NC-first haven't done the build in a situation where it makes sense yet.

If the world is small, or if you have a really close rival, or if you're in a starting location that really sucks to defend, NC-first is awful. There's just no way around it. But if you can settle on Marble (and thus get access to it instantly), the world is big, you're on your own private peninsula or island, or you have a city-state between you and your closest rival (bonus points if it's Militaristic), the early NC starts looking a lot more attractive.

Even when it is attractive, there's a lot of other things to consider. Is it worth going for Calendar first to try to slam out Stonehenge before Writing comes along? The early Culture boost helps a lot, allowing you to snag Aristocracy and a few other policies from Tradition early to help supercharge your rapid-expansion phase.

Do you attempt to grab the Great Library the instant after you get your NC? You can snag Civil Service for free this way, which will get you out of the Classical era VERY early and set you up to benefit greatly from being a city-state patron.

Stealing a worker is also a big decision, since you could use the extra hammers to spit out a couple warriors. However, a convenient worker is not always available, and even if you do find one there's no guarantee it'll be close enough to the work you need in time.

Generally speaking I'd say that early NC is a good setup to have in your back pocket if it becomes obvious in the first 10-20 turns that it'd be appropriate, but starting the game with the express intent of running early NC is asking for trouble.

 

[Smote]

I agree that NC first is usually a weak game, mostly due to the glaring hammer deficit caused by not expanding.

It might be worthwhile if capital has a river and 3+ "3 squares". Most preferable are the 1F/2H squares from plains horse or sheep hill.

NC first demands civil service fast in order to recover lost hammers (extra food -> extra hammers, either indirectly through growth+many workers (to improve squares fast) or directly through settler production).

Personally, I also think its not worth it if you don't get either marble or aristocracy before beginning NC.

Its very situational.

Generally, swordspider's proposed "3 city -> NC" works a lot better. Consider it a compromise between hammers and beakers. Buying the library in the third city can help the speed of this as well.

 

[iggymnrr]

I agree that NC first is usually a weak game, mostly due to the glaring hammer deficit caused by not expanding.

There seems to be confusion here. I am under the impression that an NC start involves 2 cities. Attempting it with 1 city or 3 cities are variations. All 3 possibilities are NC starts in my mind.

 

[Smote]

There seems to be confusion here. I am under the impression that an NC start involves 2 cities. Attempting it with 1 city or 3 cities are variations. All 3 possibilities are NC starts in my mind.

Ah, my mistake, 2 city is reasonable

 

[iggymnrr]

Ah, my mistake, 2 city is reasonable

There's no real mistake.

On king level a 3-city NC does work very well. Ramesses should probably try it at 2 cities especially if he can settle on marble. Throw in a 30 culture ruin and a nearby maritime, Ramesses can motor in a hurry.

 

[vexing]

I am under the impression that an NC start involves 2 cities. Attempting it with 1 city or 3 cities are variations. All 3 possibilities are NC starts in my mind.

what makes you think that?
capital only is going to be faster and stronger. i like buying settler a few turns before it finishes.

 

[metatheory]

what makes you think that?
capital only is going to be faster and stronger. i like buying settler a few turns before it finishes.

I'm beginning to believe a 3 city NC start is superior. The reason is simple: more hammers. I realized this after doing so many NC starts and effectively shifting my capitol to pure production for the 20 turns it takes to get NC out, effectively killing population growth for that many turns

If you pump out a couple settlers first you immediately gain access to more hammers. You can even fit in Stonehenge.

 

[Airey]

...shifting my capitol to pure production for the 20 turns it takes to get NC out, effectively killing population growth for that many turns

This is exactly why early AH is important for Horse/Sheep tiles.
With pure grassland and mine starts, settler first is prob better.

 

[Tabarnak]

Just trying this out:

1 city (india)

Research order:
Pottery
Writing
Mining
Bronze Working
Iron Working
Calender +5turns to go.

National College +2turns to go.

It is turn 34.

I've chopped 2 forest, built two mines, and I haven't bought anything.

Is this on quick speed? If yes, finishing NC around turn 30 seem to be crucial to not let expansion hurt too much. I have to say that in single player building NC first is often a good strategy with some AIs around because you can sell stuff and try to buy a library fast enough.

No city states and AIs around is less likely letting you to build NC fast enough and barbs can harrass you more than usual(which often happens in multiplayer). In that case, expanding for 2-3 cities more seem better.

 

[iggymnrr]

what makes you think that?
capital only is going to be faster and stronger. i like buying settler a few turns before it finishes.

Another thread that started the NC thing. 2 cities. I can see how a person would think 1 city seeing "NC start" as the initial reference point.

 

[iggymnrr]

I'm beginning to believe a 3 city NC start is superior. The reason is simple: more hammers. I realized this after doing so many NC starts and effectively shifting my capitol to pure production for the 20 turns it takes to get NC out, effectively killing population growth for that many turns

If you pump out a couple settlers first you immediately gain access to more hammers. You can even fit in Stonehenge.

At king level I can usually get a maritime (not always) to spit the settlers out, get a couple 200 RAs and save for the third library. With Isabella or Askia a worker might also be bought. But yeah, stonehenge is like a done deal and, probably the oracle too. 20 turns for the NC is too long. 15 is more like it.

 

[Paeanblack]

To the posters playing on Quick Speed:

If you could prefix all of your turn counts with 'Q', that would clear up much of the confusion.
i.e. "I finished my National College on turn Q22.

 

[UWHabs]

Just did a one-city NC start with Genghis. Not the fastest, I'm sure, since I took both AH and trapping early to grab the furs in my cap, but I seemed to get it pretty early, and still got my 3 cities I cared about. Got decently lucky with huts with a bit of money, a pop, and the culture, so that I could get the +33% wonder bonus. I was even a bit short to buy the settler, so I just built it like normal after the NC, and used my money to buy a worker in the second city to get it going faster.

Compared to previous starts, I definitely got out stronger than before. My tech was zooming along, and got to Keshiks in what seemed like a reasonable time (I was hitting each era at the same time as everyone else, so I definitely wasn't falling behind in tech).

 

[Txurce]

Compared to previous starts, I definitely got out stronger than before. My tech was zooming along, and got to Keshiks in what seemed like a reasonable time (I was hitting each era at the same time as everyone else, so I definitely wasn't falling behind in tech).

If nothing serious goes wrong - like too many of the wrong neighbors, too close - this is what ought to happen every time, even if you don't get the NC in close to 40 turns. It's a huge boost.

 

[Airey]

To the posters playing on Quick Speed:

If you could prefix all of your turn counts with 'Q', that would clear up much of the confusion.
i.e. "I finished my National College on turn Q22.

+1 ya...tx