Need Help - City Specialization

[Tony.Uk]

I have read some threads on this and still not sure about some aspects, and since trying to specialize my cities I am getting even worse results than before, playing at warlord level on BTS.

Some points:

Played yesterday as Incas, starting with a coastal city, therefore I think immeditately set this up as a commmerce city, though it had no floodplains.
I would prefer to start with a production city but did not think this was a good idea as not much mining facilities around. Is this correct? I eventually found a GP city with floodplains which I farmed as I need GP's not commerce but this was on the front line and eventually attacked.

So to set up commercial I go into city manager and indicate one of the markers as commercial. I dont know any other way of doing this. Immedaiately I notice it then take a long time to build anything. Or should I not be decide type of city until it has reached a certain size say 6.

So thereafter I search for suitable locations for a production and GP City. Asssume you can have more than one production city for military. Its all very well the threads talking about only building miliary units in these only - does that mean I cannot build them in other non production cities, and that I have to move the miliary units created to other cities. This is not practical as when a new city is created you need a couple of say archers immediately to protect from barbarians. If you have 8 cities you probably need a good 2 production cities on each frontier.

One other thing I would like to see is a thread that shows picture examples of how to calculate precisely the number of each type of resource, food, hammer and coin point in a potential city in order to determine type, without getting involved in complications like dot mapping - keep it simple with examples. I also think GP and commerial cities should be away from the front line if possible. So I am still doing something wrong.

Whenever I start to do well (by luck) - I get attacked by idiots like Shaka with huge stacks, despite trying to build up my miliary - how do they do this?
Groan!

Cheers
TonyUK

 

[Tony.Uk]

Oh and something else. On the city screen I often see specialists lined up at the bottom as well as selected above and next to + or _. What is this quieu?

 

[Yzman]

The ones on the bottom are specialists that are always there...from wonders, great people settling etc.

 

[Tony.Uk]

Ok, assuming these are the specialist you actually have employed or available?

 

[Willem]

So to set up commercial I go into city manager and indicate one of the markers as commercial. I dont know any other way of doing this. Immedaiately I notice it then take a long time to build anything. Or should I not be decide type of city until it has reached a certain size say 6.

There's no need to set any priorities with your governor when trying to specialize a city. That only has a marginal effect. It's not in how it's managed but in what you build there. For a commerce city, you would put lots of Cottages in your city radius and build things like Markets , Banks etc.

Its all very well the threads talking about only building miliary units in these only - does that mean I cannot build them in other non production cities, and that I have to move the miliary units created to other cities.

Just because you have production cities doesn't mean that you can't build units anywhere else. In fact you'll pretty much have to at some point since you won't have enough buildings to keep the other cities busy. Eventually they'll run out of things to build. But you don't want to waste too much time in your production cities building things like Markets, Libraries etc. Focus on buildings that are going to increase their production like Forges, Factories etc. and build nothing but units in between.

One tactic I've used before that works well is building a Barracks in every city then alternating between a unit and a building using the perpetual queue. If you create one for a particular unit then add a building below that, then when the unit is done the perpetual build will drop to the end of the queue and the building will start. After awhile, you'll find yourself with a pretty powerful military without sacrificing any city improvements.

I also think GP and commerial cities should be away from the front line if possible. So I am still doing something wrong.

It doesn't matter as long as they are adequately defended. You don't always have a choice. However, if you think that a city might be at risk it wouldn't hurt to have a backup in some other, more secure, location.

Whenever I start to do well (by luck) - I get attacked by idiots like Shaka with huge stacks, despite trying to build up my miliary - how do they do this?
Groan!

If you have someone like Shaka or Monty as a neighbour, you need to put alot more into your military. Instead of having two production cities, have four.

 

[Tony.Uk]

That helps, as I was concerned about being too inflexible. It does not make sense when building military in other cities and not having a barracks or a stable. One thing I notice the GP tend to appear in your capital but in the City Governor you can emphasize A GP so there is a better chance of appearing in another city of your choice, though I take your point otherwise this has a marginal effect. I always have city governor turned off as I like to manage each one myself, though not always. I cant help thinking looking at other threads that I am not aggressive enough, I like to build, and you have to be jolly certain you have built enough units before attacking as the A1 in BTS tends to build more units and moves them to threatened areas quicker. Using Alt-S is also good for remembering which cities types.

Cheers

 

[Willem]

I cant help thinking looking at other threads that I am not aggressive enough, I like to build, and you have to be jolly certain you have built enough units before attacking as the A1 in BTS tends to build more units and moves them to threatened areas quicker.

You should try the alternating queue, it usually works quite well. Just build a Barracks in every city then select one unit type for it to build. Then create a perpetual build for that unit and place any buildings you want to add below that. Once the unit is built, it will drop to the end of the list so you can place another building selection after that. Doing it this way, I'm quite often the most powerful civ in the game by the Middle Ages, and without sacrificing my city development. It's still a good idea to have at least one or two cities that churns out nothing but units though, except for a Forge etc.

 

[dubrown]

City specialisation is a good thing to learn. There are good articles in the waracademy that covers both city specialisation and how to count Hammers, food etc.

With that said, there's still a point in being flexible. Every city should have some basic infrastructure like courthouse, granary, library and forge (there could be a few exceptions though, Ice/tundra cities put there just to secure a resource may be hard to develop for example)

I'm no expert at all with city specialisation, I tend to focus some cities early, a science center, gp-farm, a military production center and if needed, a cottage heavy commerce city. But as time goes on the more specialised cities tends to become pretty much multipurpose with an advantage in one area. There's one huge exception to this and that's the military production center. Atleast two very good cities is always in my plan. I usually wants a third focused on naval units as well. Ofc, with a very large empire you might need more, but two-three military production oriented cities and some flexibility in your other "specialised" cities usually covers my military needs.

To sum things up, city specialisation is certainly a good thing to master as you learn a whole lot about the game mechanics. But unless you are a hard core, above monarch level player (I guess, I'm only up to monarch and quite happy to stay there) there's no need for extreme city specialisation.

 

[OTAKUjbski]

Played yesterday as Incas, starting with a coastal city, therefore I think immeditately set this up as a commmerce city, though it had no floodplains.

Coastal cities can serve as good Commerce Cities in the early game (especially with Financial, Colossus and/or Great Lighthouse), but will eventually be bested by land-based (read: "Cottage-based") Commerce Cities.

I eventually found a GP city with floodplains which I farmed as I need GP's not commerce but this was on the front line and eventually attacked.

Floodplains are better suited for Cottaging. You really want a GP Farm based on Food Resources if plausible:

Floodplains cause that will eventually inhibit the city's ability to grow and support specialists. It also takes more of them to support specialists (1:1), so your city will hit the cap sooner -- at which point the from population begins inhibiting the city's ability to grow and support specialists.

If you have 8 cities you probably need a good 2 production cities on each frontier.

You have good instincts. Depending on the neighbourhood, I usually have 1 [military] production city per every 2 to 4 cities.

One other thing I would like to see is a thread that shows picture examples of how to calculate precisely the number of each type of resource, food, hammer and coin point in a potential city in order to determine type, without getting involved in complications like dot mapping - keep it simple with examples.

You might want to check out my article: City Specialization: Where I do it. There's no 'dotmapping' to speak of, and I include 8 different picture examples of my cities in a particular game and how and why I decided to make each of them what they became.

I also think GP and commerial cities should be away from the front line if possible. So I am still doing something wrong.

Yes and no. "Core" cities are frequently off the front lines, but like Willem said, if you adequately defend your border cities, it shouldn't matter.

--------

I really enjoy the topic of City Specialization and stress it whenever possible, but don't get too wrapped up in it.

When you really get down to it, the only cities that should be truly "Specialized" are the ones containing your National Wonders. Every other city can be whatever you want them to be -- whether you want to strictly specialize them is your preference.



-- hope that helps ...

 

[Tony.Uk]

Currently looking at your thread, looks interesting.

Now I am just at year 1700 playing as Zara Yaqob and have 1697 points, 170 points ahead of Spain. I seem to play best with this trait as I like to have friends rather than attacking to gain land. What helped here was I was able to build 4-5 cities before 0 AD and then get the Great Wall which seems to provide greater all round protection. Strange thing is my capital should have been for military and has currenlt 131 hammers and population 17 - I found it convenient to build wonders in there too due to the reduced time. This was not my intention, it turned turned out this way, so I think you have to be flexible too. Also most of my GP came out in this city despite selecting another research city for this purpose.

I never actually build a city on a floodplain but assume you can build next to one as long as by a river. I like the Levee too so give this a priority.

Dont know whether I will win this one yet on Warlord, but it is certainly my best attempt as I am usually in the bottom half of the table at this stage!! And say 30 attempts, late nights. If I wasn't semi retired I could not do this as it is time consuming. In the early stages I now take my time more(prone to rushing the game) as the first 100 turns are critical.

Thanks

 

[Khift]

I, too, have a bit of an issue with city specialization, but it usually boils down to one question: How can you make a non river city a production city without running State Property? No matter what I do non-river cities never even approach the productive power of a city with access to watermills and if it does come remotely close it's because I've squandered some ridiculous site like one with five food resources that would have been better making an obscene GP farm as opposed to a slightly above mediocre production city.

Basically, how do you make a production city without watermills or State Property? Workshops don't cut it when they just turn flat grassland into mined grassland hills.

 

[OTAKUjbski]

Basically, how do you make a production city without watermills or State Property? Workshops don't cut it when they just turn flat grassland into mined grassland hills.

Without State Property (or Caste System), mines and strategic resources are the best you can do.

After that, you just have to work with what you have (i.e., a Farm and 2 Workshops).

Also, if you're not running SP, then founding one of the GE Corporations will help make your "flatland" city into a good production site. It won't be as good as a riverside production site, but it will still be good in its own right.

 

[Roxlimn]

OTAKUjbski:

Coastal cities can serve as good Commerce Cities in the early game (especially with Financial, Colossus and/or Great Lighthouse), but will eventually be bested by land-based (read: "Cottage-based") Commerce Cities.

I used to think that way, too, but recent events in my games have forced me to rethink this stance, especially with health limiting the pop growth and limits of cities in the Industrial Era.

I'm thinking here, a 3 seafood + grasslands Coastal Commerce City with the Globe Theater (used it to run Specialists for GP Farming). This is not the capital - that was cottaged extensively.

Globe Theater or HR to pop off the happy cap, Harbors to boost health, large size and trade-route friendly conditions to push the trade routes off the charts. Customs House, GLighthouse, Harbor, Open Borders with large Civs, you name it.

I've found such a city to be a major contributor to the economy - easily the match of any cottaged city even without the Globe (using Rep, then).

My takeaway lesson from that game was that Large City + Foreign Trade Routes = mucho dinero.

 

[OTAKUjbski]

@ Roxlimn:

Do you Cottage or Farm the Grasslands?

DISCLAIMER: I'm not discounting trade routes. Especially in BtS, trade routes are extremely profitable. I'm just giving a little food for thought:

All things considered equal, the basic choice is whether to Farm a tile for increased population (and a specialist) or Cottage it to Mature into a Town.

A specialist is worth [typically] 3 something + 3 + 3 from Representation.

A Post-Democracy Town is worth 5 + 2 from Free Speech + 1 from Universal Suffrage.

Each additional population point is worth an average of +1 total (typical range is +0.4 to +1.4 if all trade routes are foreign).

Spoiler trade route math stuff :

Base trade route value which is determined by the other city ( other_city's_population / 10 ) and typically averages from 2 - 4 commerce in the post-Biology stage of the game. So the bonus from population ranges from +0.1 to +0.2 per trade route.

Most cities at this time will have 4 trade routes but can have as many as 7 (Basic trade route (1) + Currency (1) + Free Market (1) + Corporation (1) + Cothon (1) + Airport (1) + Single Currency UN Resolution).

So the total value of +1 population point in trade ranges from 0.4 - 1.4 (NOTE: If every city on the globe was population 30, and you had an Airport and Single Currency, 1 population point would be worth roughly +0.9).

So the choice basically boils down to:

3 something + 3 + 1 + 3

vs​

7 + 1

--------

MY THOUGHTS AND CONSIDERATIONS (on Farm vs Town for ):

If you're Financial or Philosophical, the answer should be pretty clear.

With full Civic complement, the comparison is too close to call, IMO. (I'd like to call it in favour of Trade Routes on the grounds of GPP, but given the Era, I think it's likely the GPP won't come to fruition in time to matter ... at least, that's how it goes in my games for non-GP Farm GPP.)

If the city exceeds the or cap, Farms come in at a loss.

Without Representation, Farms come in at a loss.

Without Caste System, Farms might come in at a loss for cities larger than pop 28. (With all Merchant- & Scientist-enabling buildings, a city is limited to 8 'quality' [an arguable definition, I know] specialists. If you're into Spies, pop 35 is the 'quality limit'.)

Without Universal Suffrage, Towns come in at a loss.

Without Free Speech, Towns come in at a loss.

With Sistine Chapel (if you're into that sort of thing), Towns come in at a loss.

For Culture (if you're into that sort of thing), Towns come in at a loss.

--------

My personal preference is on Towns. I find with Farms, I have to build more infrastructure to enable specialists and fight the and caps. With Towns, cities can be smaller and so are more likely to come in under the and cap.

With that said, my target city size is usually 27, and Representation is my favourite Civic. (I think you can surmise why that's the case. )

 

[Roxlimn]

Don't get me wrong. I LIKE late game Towns as well. I suggested a transition state here not so long ago, IIRC, and futurehermit, among others, experienced good output from the same at about the Monarch level.

Your math leaves out a few things, though.

Under Representation, 5 cities have higher happiness caps, which directly translates to more Specialists and more TR output, assuming that food is not a limitation, with 10 Farmable/Cottagable tiles, Farmed cities can boost their pop limits post-Biology by as much as 10 pop points more than a Cottaged city. It's usually more modest than that, but it can reach that point.

The Globe Theater, too, makes happiness caps a moot point, its population limit is only limited by health.

There's one other consideration. We're only counting US vs. Representation for the SE. Under no duress to run Free Speech, the SE can run Bureaucracy for a hammer and commerce boost to its capital, or Nationhood for +2 more happy faces (and population, of course), Civ-wide, as well as a nice capability to draft and boost Spy output. At the limits of happiness, this is not a simple minor benefit.

Assuming 10 Cottaged tiles, a CE city can boost performance by +20 by using FS. Using Nationhood, an SE can compensate by running 2 Scientists more for an additional +12 , +2 + 6 and +25% more EPs. Plus the ability to draft. I think that that's a fair exchange.

Emancipation vs. Caste System is also certainly a significant consideration. A mature CE benefits from Emancipation no greater than an SE. In fact, Emancipation benefits a transition economy best. Others, not so much.

Under Emancipation, Cities can run Scientists and Merchants for output, but the Engineer slots (and Priest slots under Angkor Wat) have value as well, IMO, particularly for production cities. You compensate for lower Scientist slots on your Science-output CE cities by running Rep to give beakers to all Specs Civ-wide, and then running more of them.

Town-based cities can come in under the and limitations, but with food corporations under your belt, they're likely to be running Specialists anyway, perforce, simply because they've exceeded their tile footprint.

Counting the Specialists you're running in your two GP Farms, plus all the Specialists you're running everywhere else anyways, plus latter game free Specialists it might be better even for a CE to run Representation anyway, even if it means taking a hammer hit somewhere.