Need help with city maintenence on Prince.

Joined
Sep 12, 2007
Messages
605
I am Playing Mansu Musa and have a a ton of gold, but my commerce total are -2/Turn at 100% research. I always have problems expanding in early game. I find it strange that I'm financial and I'm working around 10 Gold in each city, but each city says I'm producing 0 gold with an average of 1 gold maintenance in each city.

Am I missing something? i think I'm not fully understanding how this gold works out. Is there a tech that lets me produce gold in the city? What is happening to my 20 gold?

Sorry for all the newb questions, but I've always just ignored this problem in the past, as eventually my cities start producing gold. But, I'm on prince now and I'm having a lot of troubles expanding and the early game in general.

Screen shot:


Thanks for any help
-=Mark=-
 
It is really easy to explain. You are running 100% science which means that all the gold you are generating is converted to beakers (33 per turn in your screenshot). If you increase your tax rate with 10% (so going to 90% science) you will notice that you will be generating a little money. Propably you will have +1 gold with 10% tax.

That is some nice land btw. Concentrate on settling a lot more cities quickly. I see several very good sites.
 
Commence =/= Gold

Commence are, depending on your %, Gold or Science ... in this case all of it is Science
 
It is really easy to explain. You are running 100% science which means that all the gold you are generating is converted to beakers (33 per turn in your screenshot). If you increase your tax rate with 10% (so going to 90% science) you will notice that you will be generating a little money. Probably you will have +1 gold with 10% tax.

Yes, I understand that part, but I had 100% slider beforehand and 0/Turn before I built the mine on the Gems, but nothing changed after I built & Worked the gem tile. but as soon as I built the second city, it went -2/Turn. also, what happened to the surplus gold at the beginning?

In later parts of the game I can run 100% research and have +:gold:/Turn. But early game it won't give extra gold per turn at 100%. was wondering why that is, and how I can get surplus gold/turn as early as possible.

That is some nice land btw. Concentrate on settling a lot more cities quickly. I see several very good sites.

Bah, I was too late. I lost land fast from my very close neighbors and lost too many units to barbs with no resources to build armies with. iron/copper were all out of reach and I didn't grab the horses quick enough and lost out on my only army resource available. I have only archers/warriors and it isn't looking pretty now as everyone is closing on my borders too fast.

I may try this over tomorrow and see how it goes when I pay closer attention. Maybe I'll try REXing a little after I get a clearer understanding of gold.

Thanks for reply
-=Mark=-
 
I believe that's City Maintanence, as you have 2 citys, both are affected.
Also later on in the game, inflation also reduces your GPT. It's not something you can change either, unless you have an event that changes it.
 
Gold :)gold:) is different from commerce :)commerce:). Commerce comes from the coin:)commerce:) icons you get from worked tiles and trade routes. The total commerce produced by your empire is then converted to science:)science:), culture:)culture:), or espionage:)espionage:), depending on the percentage beside each icon. Any surplus commerce is then converted to gold:)gold:) which pays for maintenance, upkeep, etc. If your total gold(commerce converted to gold, raw gold from merchants/shrines, etc.) is greater/less than your total expenses, you get +/- gold per turn(that must be the -2/turn you were talking about). So in this case if you're running 100%:science: all your commerce is diverted to research, and since you probably do not yet have anything that produces raw gold:)gold:), you get the -2/turn because you have to pay for increased city maintenance but aren't producing any gold for that turn (no commerce->gold or raw gold from merchants/shrines)

Gold is either spent or saved for future spending, so unless you're planning something that requires a lot of gold, don't worry too much about surplus gold. This is especially true in the early game where the highest priority is land grabbing and population growth(to gain access to resources, to deny the AI of land, to be able to work more improved tiles, and the capability to produce even more gold in the future) which naturally comes at the cost of increased city maintenance and civic upkeep. More cities = more population = more production and commerce in the long run, just be careful not to crash your economy too hard before pottery(cottages) or writing(libraries)
 
OK, it''s starting to make sense now. My maintenance isn't deducted from my gold until after my totals are calculated. I thought maintenance came off first, then the leftover went to my totals. I thought more gold in my city would negate maintenance completely, but I guess it makes more sense this way, especially with multipliers from building/civics/etc.

My 1 gold is equal to 1 research when at 100%. So if I start off with a bunch of gem/silver/gold mines t start, then my research will be higher than just villages. My maintenance will however keep me from running 100% as long with cities, while the mines will allow a higher percent, giving me lots more of research.

So late game, it is better to build gold in my gold cities, rather than build research! also, I would be better to focus on banks/grocer/etc instead of monestaries, libraries, etc. in my gold cities as well. and vice versa, with research cities not needing banks,grocers,etc as much as religion buildings, libraries, etc.

I'm still unsure how I am able to produce a positive gold rate when at 100% research late in the game. Is there some modifiers that will negate maintenance? I notice it is when I start building wealth late game. Never tried it early game yet to see if it works then.

@j0anne - I never heard of this raw gold before. Is it used before you calculate totals and applied directly to maintenance? It's kind of confusing me.

Also, you say merchant/shrines generate raw gold. You mean the merchant specialists or any specialist that produce gold and shrines as in cathedrals or prophets planted in holy cities?

Thanks again, this is a huge help for me.
-=Mark=-
ps. I just founded Taoism and I noticed I was switched to it as my religion (non-religion beforehand). I don't remember switching myself, but maybe I did. Anyway, when founding a religion is it automatically enabled if you are non-religious? It sure has me in huge trouble with my neigbors. good thing I am starting over tomorrow. lol I predict WW3 any second. lol
 
If you are building wealth, you are converting production directly into gold, not commerce. As a result, if you have enough cities producing wealth or have other sources of gpt such as specialists or shrines, it is quite possible to have a positive cash flow while still running 100% research. You'd have to own a shrine or have a settled great prophet to have a positive cash flow at 100% research with more than 1 city at 1500BC.
 
If your sliders aren't set to 100% :science:/:culture:/:espionage: or any combination of the three adding up to 100% e.g. 40%:science:, 30%:culture:, 30%:espionage:, that means some of your total commerce:commerce: is converted to gold:gold:. This is what I meant by "commerce:commerce: converted to gold:gold:." Some specialists(merchant, priest, settled great merchant, settled great artist) and buildings(spiral minaret wonder, religious shrines e.g. mahabodhi, kashi vishwanath etc.) produce gold:gold: directly. This is what I meant by "raw gold:gold:." One big difference between the two is that commerce->gold is dependent on the sliders (example: if your sliders are set to 70%:science:, 20%:culture:, 0%:espionage:, only the remaining 10% is converted to gold and then acted upon by multipliers). Raw gold however, since it is produced directly, is independent of the sliders, so the effects of gold multipliers are also independent of the sliders. That's why gold multiplier buildings(market, grocer, bank, wall st.) are sometimes more effective in a shrined holy city than in a heavily cottaged city.
 
Mark -

J0anne did a good job explaining the difference between gold and commerce. Commerce is represented by the gold colored coins on the map and from trade routes in your city screen. These gold coins come from cottages, riverside tiles, gold/gem/silver resources and some calendar resources. It's an important concept to understand that commerce is not gold. When you are calling it gold you are confusing yourself and others.

With that said, commerce is converted into beakers, gold, culture and espionage points depending on how you run your sliders. (Basically gold or true income is the result of not running your research slider or combination of other sliders at 100% - it is as simple at that) Of course, the amount of gold generated at lower slider levels is impacted by city/unit maintenance costs) There are many times during rapid expansion early where I was generating negative gold per turn with the research slider at 0% and would have to adjust tiles worked to accommodate this until I recovered my economy.

It is often necessary early, especially at higher levels, to lower your research slider for a while to generate gold to fund your expansion. This is quite normal. It's learning how to manage this properly that is part of the game. Maintenance cost from cities grow over time but can be reduced by certain factors such as the Organized trait, building courthouses in cities more distant to the cap (you don't always need them everywhere, and the Forbidden Palace NW and Versailles Wonder, which I rarely build.

So as an example, say you are running research at 100% and have settled a few cites, so that you are essentially in deficit research (i.e., you are losing a little gold in your bank - say -2 gold per turn). You build a mine on a gem resource and plop a citizen on it to work. This does not instantly translate into gold because what that gem resource is providing is 5 or 6 commerce (not sure of the actually total commerce of that improved resource at the moment. However, because you are running at 100% beakers you just increase your beakers significantly (relatively speaking). Now try this by running your reearch slider at 0% (before and after). In this case, you would see a significant increase in the amount of gold output.

J0anne refers to raw gold. Well, this is basically gold or currency (cash) - whatever you want to call it - it is the money the supports your economy. Lower your research slider generates gold. There is something that I like to refer to as "static" gold, i.e., gold generation per turn that is not impacted by the slider (unchanging, thus, static). The best example of this is the gold generated by holy shrines. For each city that religion spreads to the shrine income increases by 1gpt. Markets, Banks, Grocers and Wall Street multiply this effect, which is why Wall Street is often built in shrine cities. The nice thing about "static" gold generation is that it never changes based on how you run your sliders and therefore the multipliers (markets, etc) are always in effect. Other examples of static gold are corporations and Spiral Minaret effect.

Building wealth on the other hand is a way of producing static gold using hammers. This is a great ploy to use during the game at different points to "fund" certain objectives. You could use it to fund another expansion run, a war, or running your research high to get out a key tech. One important thing to understand about "building" wealth or research is it is totally based on hammers. Secondly, it is NOT impacted by buildings the multiply beakers or gold, so building wealth in cities with markets and grocers is not providing any advantage and often these cities are low on hammers. You can build wealth in any city, but cities with high hammer output like unit pump cities or wonder whore cities nets the best output.

Back to commerce quickly - trade routes are another important source of commerce. As with the commerce coins on the map, there are commerce coins in the top left of your city screens that represent trade routes. Trade routes commerce grows over time based on several factors such as the size of your cites, open borders (foreign trade routes), oversea trade routes, certain techs, and buildings and wonders that increase the number of trade routes or percentage thereof. (The Great Lighthouse and Temple of Artemis, harbors, customs houses) If you have a watery map and lots of coastal cities (or potential), trade route income can be huge and the GLH a priority.
 
:agree: That's what I was trying to say lol crosspost

ha...yeah I was trying to build off of your original post. It appeared that Mark still didn't grasp the difference between commerce and gold. Of course, we've all been there. I think I played the game about a year before understanding it - actually just didn't think about it, before finding this forum. Heck...I don't think I even built cottages.
 
yeah me too I didn't know that commerce!=gold before cfc but unlike you I just spammed cottages everywhere
 
OK, I think I see it now. Commerce is being used for generic funding and you use the sliders to designate weather it's used for research/culture/espionage and it defaults to gold if less than 100% on slider.

Gold multipliers don't apply to the commerce, but to the gold being generated from the slider running less than 100% plus gold producing buildings and gold multiplying buildings specialist, wonders, etc.

now I see why putting banks and other buildings in that don't generate much gold. and I like 100% research, so only my special cities for gold producing need it.

now that I am understanding this, I kept playing my horrible game with only 4 cities and it makes it so much easier to understand when I only have 4 cities to maintain. I'm actually doing well if I don't get DoW on me. I've been able to specialize cities better and have been able to actually progress my army and I'm closing in on everyone's army. .7 or better ratio so far.

I have to pleased AIs and can bribe them into war if I want. but I'm afraid whoever I bribe them will know and generate too much hate towards me. lol

btw. Is my army ratio from the number of army units or the power of my units? and would it include my defense (walls, castles)?

well, It's time for bed, the sun is up. lol
-=Mark=-
 
My 1 gold is equal to 1 research when at 100%. So if I start off with a bunch of gem/silver/gold mines t start, then my research will be higher than just villages. My maintenance will however keep me from running 100% as long with cities, while the mines will allow a higher percent, giving me lots more of research.
You got that correct. Even with one city you can get to a -gpt situation if you have many units. Check your commerce screen to get a good idea of what is going on.

So late game, it is better to build gold in my gold cities, rather than build research! also, I would be better to focus on banks/grocer/etc instead of monestaries, libraries, etc. in my gold cities as well. and vice versa, with research cities not needing banks,grocers,etc as much as religion buildings, libraries, etc.
When your science slider is at 100%, all the commerce from your gold mine will go to science. On BTS any city that can generate raw hammers is good for generating gold. But the gold produced this way do not get the bank and other building multiplier (but a forge, factory and power plant will boost the hammers). So the best way to generate gold is with a specialized city with alot of food and run merchents. The gold generated by the merchants will get the bank and other buiding's commerce boost.

Best commerce city would have a religion founded in it and a Great Prophet build a shrine in it. Lets say you have a city with some religious shrine and there are 10 cities w/that religion. you are getting 10 gold per turn and if this city had a bank, market, grocer and the wall street, this 10 gold will increase to 30 (Base 10+10*(50%+25%+25%+100%)). So each merchant sould give 9gpt in this city.

I'm still unsure how I am able to produce a positive gold rate when at 100% research late in the game. Is there some modifiers that will negate maintenance? I notice it is when I start building wealth late game. Never tried it early game yet to see if it works then.
If you have small empire and large cities, then the trade routes can do it. Also if the city governers were assigning merchents in cities is another. And of cause a shrine but from your writing it is likely not the case.

Also, you say merchant/shrines generate raw gold. You mean the merchant specialists or any specialist that produce gold and shrines as in cathedrals or prophets planted in holy cities?
Merchant or a priest but merchant is better. Shrine is a building that can only be built by a great prophet in a city which found a religion. Not settled great prophet or cathedral (I wish).

ps. I just founded Taoism and I noticed I was switched to it as my religion (non-religion beforehand). I don't remember switching myself, but maybe I did. Anyway, when founding a religion is it automatically enabled if you are non-religious? It sure has me in huge trouble with my neigbors. good thing I am starting over tomorrow. lol I predict WW3 any second. lol
You likely said yes when the game informed you of the founding of the religion and asked if you want to adopt it. By any chance was that a spiritual leader?:lol:
 
OK, I think I see it now. Commerce is being used for generic funding and you use the sliders to designate weather it's used for research/culture/espionage and it defaults to gold if less than 100% on slider.

Gold multipliers don't apply to the commerce, but to the gold being generated from the slider running less than 100% plus gold producing buildings and gold multiplying buildings specialist, wonders, etc.

now I see why putting banks and other buildings in that don't generate much gold. and I like 100% research, so only my special cities for gold producing need it.

now that I am understanding this, I kept playing my horrible game with only 4 cities and it makes it so much easier to understand when I only have 4 cities to maintain. I'm actually doing well if I don't get DoW on me. I've been able to specialize cities better and have been able to actually progress my army and I'm closing in on everyone's army. .7 or better ratio so far.

I have to pleased AIs and can bribe them into war if I want. but I'm afraid whoever I bribe them will know and generate too much hate towards me. lol

btw. Is my army ratio from the number of army units or the power of my units? and would it include my defense (walls, castles)?

well, It's time for bed, the sun is up. lol
-=Mark=-

By George! I think he's got it! (edit: Of course, note that the actually amount of gold you start generating at lower sliders is impacted by maintenance costs - this is why you may need to lower the sliders temporarily to "bank" gold. How do you think the AIs come up with so much gold to trade at times?)

On a different note, based on some of the things you've mentioned, I'm not sure what date you are at in your game, but 4 cities is not optimal. The general rule to go by for standard games is to have 6 cities by 1AD. The number of cities and rate of expansion are impacted by many things including your preferences. However, you want at least 6 cities as that's the number you generally need to build certain key National wonders, i.e., 6 Unis/Oxford or 6Theatres/Globe. Added to that is the fact that more land is better in CIV. Land is Power!!! Different leaders and traits may also impact how fast you expand. Also, you may decide early warfare is the way to go and actually conquer yourself a nice empire. Some games I may have 10 cities by 1AD or 15 to 20 by 1000AD or I may just stick with 6 to 9 cities and go cultural. It all depends. However, if your just sticky with 4 cities the entire game that equals FAIL. (well, actually there are situations you can win with 4 cites but it's generally sucky...ha)

100% research slider is nice, but the fact is that you will not always be able to run it that high as you advance levels. On lower levels you may get away with it, especially with your sub-optimal 4 cities, but you must learn to manage the sliders. Learn about binary research and the importance of running specialists, especially scientists early game.

The whole market/grocer/bank play into the whole concept of specializing cities and also not building everything in every city. Market/banks/grocers are generally important in high commerce cities as that do multiply the gold output when you lower sliders to generate gold (AND YOU WILL HAVE TO DO THAT A LOT).

Power rating is impacted by several factors. There is an article the break it down a bit in the War Academy (although it's a bit hard to understand IMO). Yes, walls/castles impact it but a lot of folks don't build them. Don't build walls if you have more important things to build - they can always be easily whipped on borders if attacked. Military buildings (barracks/stables) and the Heroic Epic have an effect too. Of course, number of units have the most effective, but quality matter too not just quantity. Have at least one high prod city with HE building units almost constantly and then better units when those techs arrive.
 
You got that correct. Even with one city you can get to a -gpt situation if you have many units. Check your commerce screen to get a good idea of what is going on.

Except Mark should replace "1 gold" with "1 commerce", but I think he gets that now.
 
If you have small empire and large cities, then the trade routes can do it.

Actually, trade routes give commerce, so having them will not result in a positive cash flow at 100% science.

Specialists, shrines, wonders, corporations, hammer conversion, and resource trades can result in this.
 
I finally gave up on the game in the 1800s with not seeing any way to to win, but I did survive a long time on 4 cities.

anyway, I finally got a great priest and I used it to build a shrine and got over a 100 gold! It's weird, but I noticed my religion was everywhere and I didn't spread it myself. Was my religion stole? or does it just spread by osmosis? I hope there is a way to steal it as Kublai Khan has the AP and Islam, but I can't get Islam spread to my cities.

-=Mark=-
 
Top Bottom