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(Netflix) Black Cleopatra, again ^_^

I would have no problem with a black actress playing Cleo in a fictionalised take - it's not any different from Amanda Barrie or the aforementionned Liz Taylor doing so. They certainly weren't ancient people of Greek descent. On the other hand, it seems really weird to claim that the historical figure was black, at least in the sense that the term is generally understood. It's not impossible that she was - there's basically nothing in history that can be outright proven - but it's highly unlikely given the evidence we have.
 
It's interesting to note that every time it's a white person cast in such a role, it's all about their "acting credentials" and bringing "recognition" to the production. The same goes for the producer, especially when they're famous.

Coincidentally, kinda weird nobody ever seems to attempt that in the reverse.

EDIT

To expand on this, as it's a documentary with an apparent focus on Cleo being associated with black culture.

Nobody seems to be saying Cleo is ethnically black. That doesn't appear to be a thing anybody is pushing. So I'm struggling to see the "crackpot" here, at least from the very limited information shared. For the discussion to go anywhere in good faith, I think we'd need to know more about the specifics instead of going off of a misleading thread title and rather-light-on-details OP.
 
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I mean, personally my eyebrows would also go up a bit if let's say.. Arnold was hired to play Malcolm X.

(okay, maybe a lot)

I suppose in this example the ethnic background of the character is a rather central part of the story, so that's not a perfect example. And Arnold is not known for being a great actor either

So let's say if.. Brad Pitt was hired to portray Michael Jordan. It would also make me stop and wonder if it wouldn't be better to portray the character in question using an actor of .. a more similar race / skin colour
 
Gorbles said:
It's interesting to note that every time it's a white person cast in such a role, it's all about their "acting credentials" and bringing "recognition" to the production. The same goes for the producer, especially when they're famous.

Coincidentally, kinda weird nobody ever seems to attempt that in the reverse.

EDIT

To expand on this, as it's a documentary with an apparent focus on Cleo being associated with black culture.

Nobody seems to be saying Cleo is ethnically black. That doesn't appear to be a thing anybody is pushing. So I'm struggling to see the "crackpot" here, at least from the very limited information shared. For the discussion to go anywhere in good faith, I think we'd need to know more about the specifics instead of going off of a misleading thread title and rather-light-on-details OP.
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The 'crackpot' refers to the actual sole person who presented a theory according to which Cleopatra is black, and apparently this documentary is based on it. So, by extension, it becomes crackpot-kin at the very least :p

Info on the above: https://deadline.com/2021/08/africa...tt-smith-netflix-cleopatra-njinga-1234822021/

We wuz Greekz said:
Cleopatra’s heritage has been the subject of much academic debate, which has often been ignored by Hollywood. The series will re-assess that part of her story, engaging in the ongoing discussion. [...] Cleopatra was believed to be a descendant of the Ptolemaic dynasty, which would give her Greek and possibly Persian ancestry but there have been theories that she might have been part North African. The often cited 1946 book by J.A. Rogers “World’s Great Men Of Color” argues that she may have been Black.
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"Often cited", just not by actual historians.

I also wonder what Jada Smith has to do with history. I read she is an actress and the wife of Will Smith. Why is she more suited to talk about history than, say, Giorgio? :king:

 
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warpus said:
I mean, personally my eyebrows would also go up a bit if let's say.. Arnold was hired to play Malcolm X.

(okay, maybe a lot)

I suppose in this example the ethnic background of the character is a rather central part of the story, so that's not a perfect example. And Arnold is not known for being a great actor either

So let's say if.. Brad Pitt was hired to portray Michael Jordan. It would also make me stop and wonder if it wouldn't be better to portray the character in question using an actor of .. a more similar race / skin colour
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Sure, but that's not what's being discussed here. It's not "this person is obviously x and y has been cast" (though this does happen and yes, some folks work Very Hard to explain how this is Okay, Actually. See ScarJo and Ghost In The Shell, though obviously that is a fictional thing - which is something a lot of the defense hinges on).

It's "what do people mean by black" (bearing in mind a lot of us are, well, not) and exploring the perspective of a history we don't actually hold all the facts to. I don't think I can do it justice, but honestly I don't think many folks here can - not being snide. Being black is a very complex thing, especially given erasure of such historically (like how African slaves had their countries and cultures basically erased) as well as the treatment of such by actual Western scholars (history being written, often, by the victors).

I'm not sure comparing how little we actually know about this show to "Brad Pitt being cast as Michael Jordan" is a good one, basically.

Kyriakos said:
The 'crackpot' refers to the actual sole person who presented a theory according to which Cleopatra is black, and apparently this documentary is based on it. So, by extension, it becomes crackpot-kin at the very least :p
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Links would help, for sure. Apologies if I've missed one.
 
Gorbles said:
It's "what do people mean by black" (bearing in mind a lot of us are, well, not) and exploring the perspective of a history we don't actually hold all the facts to. I don't think I can do it justice, but honestly I don't think many folks here can - not being snide. Being black is a very complex thing, especially given erasure of such historically (like how African slaves had their countries and cultures basically erased) as well as the treatment of such by actual Western scholars (history being written, often, by the victors).
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Is it really that complex, though? Cleopatra was Greek and we more or less know what she looked like. It seems obvious that somebody like Halle Barry (if she were younger) would be able to play this role no problem.. but other African-American actresses would look out of place (if we are trying to be historically accurate at all)

The only complex part of this seems to be "What did Cleopatra really look like?" and I admit on this point I am not an expert (but it seems we sort of do know what she probably looked like?)
 
There simply isn't any reason to expect her to not look like the coins which depicted her. Why mislead your own subjects about how you look? The majority of the population of the Ptolemaic Empire wasn't greek, but the ruling class was greek.
Moreover, if she was black, some historian (greek or roman) would have mentioned it.

As I mentioned in the OP, in the twitter thread (which was started by Netflix) virtually all the black people were against the inclusion of Cleopatra (=don't believe she was black).
 
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Wait, so is the problem here that some people think that Cleopatra was black? I wouldn't think so, but.. I don't understand the world anymore, so I'd like a clarification on this point.

It seems to me that it hasn't even been announced who is playing Cleopatra (right?) so all we can do is speculate which actors would work for this role and which ones wouldn't. Jackie Chan is right out, we've agreed on that across the board I think, but now it's a matter of trying to figure out where to draw the line. I don't see how you could draw this line along ethnic lines though, since there is so much variety in those who self-identify as African-American in the U.S., not to mention black actresses from other countries who might be considered for the role.
 
warpus said:
Wait, so is the problem here that some people think that Cleopatra was black? I wouldn't think so, but.. I don't understand the world anymore, so I'd like a clarification on this point.

It seems to me that it hasn't even been announced who is playing Cleopatra (right?) so all we can do is speculate which actors would work for this role and which ones wouldn't. Jackie Chan is right out, we've agreed on that across the board I think, but now it's a matter of trying to figure out where to draw the line. I don't see how you could draw this line along ethnic lines though, since there is so much variety in those who self-identify as African-American in the U.S., not to mention black actresses from other countries who might be considered for the role.
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I am just quoting from the article (post #26) and also going by what happened in the Netflix tweet. It seems that indeed the show plans to present Cleopatra as black - so it'd make sense to use a black actress (assuming they'll use actresses for all "queens of Africa").
If they don't have any such scenes, they'll mention some stuff about Cleopatra being possibly egyptian, black or from Delta Draconis. What is historically acceptable, however, is that her father was a Ptolemy and her mother likely was a close relative of his (as was the Ptolemaic custom). It is very unlikely that her mother was native egyptian (no sense to do that; it wouldn't pacify the egyptians, since we have no records of such a scenario being public knowledge).
The Ptolemies did style themselves after the Pharaohs, which would logically be done (mostly) so as to maintain order more easily, given the many non-greek subjects.

A snarky remark I read (must have also been on the Twitter post) was that "Cleopatra was as much a 'queen of Africa' as Victoria was a 'queen of India'".
 
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Given the nature of kings and queens, sure. Victoria certainly was a queen of India. Murderous louts, all. ;)
 
If they get this one historical fact so blatantly wrong, then it seems like just one more reason to not watch this.. since.. what else are they going to get wrong along the way as well?

But like I said, we might as well wait until they actually announce the cast before casting judgement.

My perspective on this is basically one of immersion. If I'm watching Vikings and all the Vikings are black, then it's going to lead me to assume that the show is not going to be very historically accurate or takes place in some sort of alternate reality. Which is fine, but one of the draws of Vikings for me was that it's based on historical fact to some degree. It makes some adjustments for the sake of telling an entertaining story, but nothing visually jumps out at you that signals that it's NOT supposed to be more or less a look at human history.. unless you are a historian I suppose, in which you will probably find plenty of accuracies to complain about wrt the clothing and what not.

This whole Cleopatra "issue" is the same for me. If things don't make sense visually, I'll just start to wonder how much of the show is based around reality and how much of it is just completely made up. A part of a draw to a show like this for me at least is the historical component, so even if they make some modifications here and there for the benefit of the story, I like watching such shows while pretending that I am actually witnessing human history. I sort of get a nerd boner from all that, y'know?

I would also probably enjoy watching a show about black Vikings, but I would enjoy it for completely different reasons (assuming the writing and story were good, etc.) Same with Cleopatra I suppose, but I am not really drawn to an alternate timeline Cleopatra sort of tale (unless there are time travelling marines involved), while a more historically accurate one is sort of interesting to me.

But like I also said, there are probably plenty of African American actresses who can pass for Cleopatra, so this might very well not be an issue at all. I used Halle Berry as an example because I'm just not familiar with that many modern actors, etc.
 
I guess the lesson here is "Greek is close enough," at least for historical fiction, eh?

Is it an American show?
 
Is it possible Cleopatra self-identified as the Queen of Africa? I have no idea, but I could see a royal w/ another ethnicity embracing the ethnicity of her subjects.

Even so though, it would be strange to use an ethnic Greek person to highlight the accomplishments of black women. But is that really what they're doing? I am not yet convinced..
 
Farm Boy said:
I guess the lesson here is "Greek is close enough," at least for historical fiction, eh?

Is it an American show?
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Jada Smith produces it.

warpus said:
Is it possible Cleopatra self-identified as the Queen of Africa? I have no idea, but I could see a royal w/ another ethnicity embracing the ethnicity of her subjects.

Even so though, it would be strange to use an ethnic Greek person to highlight the accomplishments of black women. But is that really what they're doing? I am not yet convinced..
Click to expand...

We will find out sooner rather than later. But both the article and the official Netflix account twitter discussion leave little to no room for a different interpretation.
 
I guess I don't know where she's from, nor is my passing interest enough to motivate me to open a new tab.
 
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