Clifford said:
Those citynames aren´t what I´d stick with. Sorry, but they are not very representative, I think. The english ones you have in the list shouldn´t have english names, like Gainsborough. Thats not very Viking at all, even if it was founded by them. (if that was the case Constantinople is just as "right")
Same with Dieppedale and Miquetuit, those names have no connection to the Vikings today, even if they were founded by them.
Another problem is the use of both Birka and Stockholm. Sure, you can use both but then I suggest adding Göteborg as well (Gothenburg) and Malmö (Malmoe). My suggestion is to use the list from Civ3.
to be fair, as a history fan, yorkshireman, living just off the isle of axholme and surrounded by norse founded towns and settlements, I can guarantee that despite not having various accents on letters that they are indeed viking names for the places or at worst viking-ised versions due to language differences.
Some names on the list are indeed anglicised in order to make them more readily acceptable in the game and more friendly to the eye when playing so Burghs ar Boroughs (but then if we had English in the game as it was during the time of Chaucer or Shakespeare or during Regency or Victorian times it'd go from totally unrecognisable to more palatable to nearly modern. it's just how languages evolve.
If we're to be completely accurate in Civ4 then we should be making vast slashes across the whole game removing anglicisms from city names (Munich, Bombay etc) and changing scripts for various cultures to display VERY westernised names like Baghdad, and so on.
A point in sample - Dieppedale - in the vale or valley of dieppe, at the end of which is now founded dieppe and not far from rouen, the ancient city of french kings. dieppedale came before dieppe though. the name was repeated in England as Deepdale. There are no other local civilisations or cultures that generated similar names in either area.
In fact you can almost immediately identify a viking settlement in the old Danelaw purely by the name.
some are so specific it's unreal. As a rule of thumb, if it ends "by" or "thorpe" then it's viking, and then there's so many more.
I purposely left out the Grimston hybrids to make sure it was less controversial
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They're not exclusive rules and of course there's more traditional names seen but to exclude Gainsborough because it doesn't sound much like Trondheim or Oslo is a false reckoning. Caerdyff (Cardiff) sounds nothing like Llantrisant, but both are Welsh. Always bear in mind that in the areas on the fringes of a civilisations' influence there will be a less traditional sounding name too, in order to assimmilate with the local population. The occurence of burgs and bourgs on the franco-german border is a good demonstration of this - but local identities would have been fiercely different at times, while eerily similar to outsiders.
What I WOULD say in agreement though is that the placing of them near the top of the list is wrong since they came several hundred years into the Viking story, around 60% through their story, though some are significant enough in merit or significance to be up amongst the more recognisable nordic settlements. For example, Jorvik and Whitby.
Taking the point of Gainsborough, it was differently named as the Burh of Gaini, and simply a fortification for the local ruling elite to live and do leader-like things. The vikings took over a nearby site 5 miles away called Torksey which was a regular town, then the fortification of the gaini followed quickly culturally not militarily.
the official rulers and kings continued to fortify it further as invasions went on elsewhere northward and despite being a point for defence it was so Danish and had been for 100 years that there was never a fight when the 'invasion' came, and it was already renamed in the viking dialect to Gainsborough.
(in more detail - Gainsborough is actually believe it or not the "viking-ised" version of the place's name, since the nordic 'guests' were unable to pronounce the full name of the burh of the gaini - or fortification of the gaini, a local tribe who'd built up the site under the Mercians (most place names were simply based on the local tribe under a regional king or warlord at the time). In fact the old castle where the church is now was one of Offa's most significant fortifications (offa is the fellow who had a huge dyke built between england and wales as a defensive barrier).
It was Britain's most inland port and although smaller than Torksey, a little further upstream was the more significant site, since it was the major fortification that had to be passed to reach the towns further up. It was around 790ish that Gainsborough was actually sailed past by the vikings, and Torksey was taken over then subsequently Gainsborough was annexed - because it was too heavily fortified to have been the initial point of attack.
The area became almost exclusively Danish and a heck of an important town and so danish in fact that when the main 'invasions' of around 865 were taking place, Gainsborough was left untouched since it was already sympathetic.
It was a significant fortification too with Alfred, who met and married his wife there, Elswitha Muchel, who was the daughter of the earl of the gaini - a significant political move since she was to all intents and purposes a Danish citizen although born and bred in the fortified settlement (still not really a town).
Its significance in Viking history in England became major at around this time when it ceased to be an annexed fortification with the local ruler housed there, and developed into a town, a trading post, and centre for local and international commerce too, since it was the norse stronghold to which Guthrum retreated after the treaty of Wedmore, following his defeat to Alfred at Edington in Somerset. Alfred the Great effectively gave an astounding peace settlement despite being in a position to crush the norse enemy at the time, and 'signed' peace terms with Guthrum the Dane, and effectively gave half of England away from the thames to the tees, to become the Danelaw on the agreement that Guthrum be baptised - and was the 2nd settlement of significance on English soil and the premier site within Danelaw because of it being so strong, so locally influential and the most inland point they could sail to and bring their trade through)
in short, don't discount a place name as a seriously major name in Viking history and worth a place in the game, because it would look out of place in a map of northern Denmark
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