New patch and the broken Mods

Fabiano1979

Chieftain
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Sep 23, 2010
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I know that not everybody plays Mods, but as a player who can only enjoy ciV with mods, Im pretty sad with the new patch.

Markusbeutel, creator of the Nights Mod, can explain way better than me:
So the latest patch has been released. It's basically broken everything. The Tech Pyramid, added buildings, specialists, the Governments screen, number diplomacy - everything is either completely or partially broken.

Slight Rant Upcoming:

For a game that was heralded for it's modding abilities, this is pretty sad. The majority of mods currently available will be affected by this update in some shape or form. Frankly, this entire process doesn't really make sense to me. When people stop playing the base game, those that continue playing move on to mods. This keeps the game fresh and even brings new players into the market. By continually releasing mod-breaking patches they're cutting off the hand that feeds them and only hurting themselves in the long run.

I think this is a serious problem, because the modders will get tired of fixing over and over again and probably will stop working.
 
I don't see how it can be done any other way. They can't be expected to know every mod and make sure things aren't broken. Is every mod being broken by one type of thing, or is it across the board? If it's consistently one thing, they might be able to work around it, but if it's lots of things, it would be unrealistic to have to figure everything else. The question is how difficult is it to fix for modders. Hopefully it doesn't take long to give an update and they can release one right after the patch.
 
Of course a new patch is going to break most mods... how could it not?

Please, start a new game without mods to test the patch.
 
I suppose they have to make a decision between either only releasing very large patches once in a while and thereby upsetting players or patching often and thereby upsetting players.

In my opinion, it's the consequence of modding. The devs are making the game mainly so it can be played vanilla and patches improve the base game. It would truly be a twisted world if they didn't patch because modders are working on their game.
 
Civilization series has a huge and traditional MOD community.

The devs, when starting to design a new edition, should have thought on ways to make it easier the work of the Modders. Im not a expert, but probably theres ways to mitigate the impact of uptades and patches on the work of the fanbase.


Ill for sure play without mods to test the new patch, but forgive me if Im skeptical. I read the notes and theres nothing revolucionary comming.
 
Well, you said it yourself, you're not an expert. Unless you have know the specifics that are causing it to break, outrage over it breaking is unfounded. It could be the way modders inserted things, it could be some core value. I suppose they could make it so mods are entirely isolated, but that would mean they don't update with bug fixes, etc. I think that would be even less ideal.
 
I feel for the modders, but ultimately, I'd rather we get patches to fix the core game and break mods now than have things broken for the rest of history because we'll more than likely get at least 1 expansion pack that will break things again even if they have no patching.

Modding actually tends to be more important in the back end of a game, when everything is done and stable, and not when it is being patched.

I've never been big on the modding scene though; and have only dabbled in creating ruleset mods to Civ3 when Firaxis gave us a nice Windows GUI to do a lot of things to change the rulesets.

As a dabbler, I really hope they release a tool like that sometime down the road.
 
It is impractical for developers to prioritize mod compatibility while making a patch. It complicates the patching process, introduces more possibilities for errors, makes the patched code less efficient, turns repeated maintenance on the same area of code into a messy hassle, and even if it works perfectly, the majority of players (who don't use mods) see no benefit.

That said, for those players who do use (or create) mods, compatibility-breaking patches are often a mess indeed. However, with all Civ games prior to Civ5, this was never a _huge_ problem. If a patch destroyed compatibility with a mod you wanted to play, you downgraded your Civ - in the worst case you'd reinstall and then patch the game to exactly the level you wanted. It took a bit of time, but it's still a much more practical solution than complicating the code and risking more errors.

So the problem is not that patches break mods. The problem is that Steam auto-patches your game and you can't choose to stay (or reinstall) on a lower level compatible to your mods. That could be solved by Steam, but as far as I've heard, they have no intention to do so. (My info is a couple of months old here though, so if something has changed, please correct me.)

And the second problem is that 2k marketing tried to make us think that patches _wouldn't_ break mods. During the Steam debates, people predicted exactly the state that we have now (repeatedly broken mods). 2k Greg's answers were:

"we have every interest in making our game backwards compatible. Please don't jump to conclusions based simply on how Civilization 4 works, because Civilization V is a completely different engine that works in very different ways." (source)

"We do not review mods so we can’t speak to the effect patches may have on every mod’s functionality. At the same time, ensuring that our platform remains stable and backward-compatible is a priority." (from the Official Steam FAQ)

Oddly enough, the Civ5 engine behaves exactly like Civ4 (and 99% of comparable games) in that regard, and the backward-compatibility of the platform has been flushed with every single patch ...

Please note: I don't criticize Firaxis/2k for making patches that break mods. As I said above, any other approach would be impractical imho. But when customers tell a company beforehand that things will break, and if the company then rejects these predictions as "jumping to conclusions" and even hints at having some magical solution to the problem, and if sometime later things happen exactly as predicted by the customers and the company's statement wasn't worth the time to read it - that, I think, is a bit shoddy.
 
I know that not everybody plays Mods, but as a player who can only enjoy ciV with mods, Im pretty sad with the new patch.

Markusbeutel, creator of the Nights Mod, can explain way better than me:


I think this is a serious problem, because the modders will get tired of fixing over and over again and probably will stop working.

Of course a new patch brakes mods, it's always been like this.

The real problem with Civ5 is that you can't have multiple versions of Civ installed on your PC, you are forced to install the latest patch. For example I still have 3-4 versions of Civ4 installed, for the only purpose of playing old mods that did not get updated to work with the latest patch. This is not possible with Civ5
 
In just about every game, patches break mods...

Sure, but I think ciV could be different. The mods are one of the reasons that the series still exists, it would make sense if the game had a respectfull way to treat the work of the fanbase.

I do think that patches are more important than mods, no doubt. But, it would be nice to have a better way toi improve the game without destroying months of modders work.
 
It's possible, but impractical to avoid this due to the nature of computer program compatibility. Each patch modifies some code, and if our own version doesn't reflect that change then things just won't be compatible, not much way around that.

I've got tens of thousands of lines of code in my mod, and when big patches like this one are released it takes only about 1 hour to update it all using WinMerge. It's not really a big deal IMO. :)
 
Of course it could be different. Of course they could take a few years off civ and develop a perfect patching system that doesn't have a side effect of interfering with mods, IF it's even possible... But I'd rather have developers patch and improve the game those few years, and the modders do what they have done so far supposed to; make stable and wonderful mods.

By the way, Thal, big fan!
 
Sure, but I think ciV could be different. The mods are one of the reasons that the series still exists, it would make sense if the game had a respectfull way to treat the work of the fanbase.

I do think that patches are more important than mods, no doubt. But, it would be nice to have a better way toi improve the game without destroying months of modders work.
Your points are well taken, but there's another way to look at it.

What we're really talking about here are two sets of programmers: (1) the Firaxis team that wrote the game and writes the patches; and (2) the modders who themselves program, albeit on a more macro level.

While it is true that (2) depends on (1) for the stability of what (2) has programmed, I think it would be prudent for the mod programmers to understand and anticipate the consquence of this fact — a fact which can't be altered. It's simply the nature of the thing.

In other words, if you're going to write a mod, then you know or should know that patches may (and usually will) affect the work you've done. So don't complain about what you can't change. Instead, do what humans do best: adapt. Give your mods the flexibility and scalibility that's required by this unfortunate but imperious law of cause and effect. And when they need changing, change them. Let the Firaxians do their job, and you do yours.

My two cents.

Lib
 
It's infeasible to avoid this due to the nature of computer program compatibility. Each patch modifies some code, and if our own version doesn't reflect that change then obviously things won't be compatible.

I've got tens of thousands of lines of code in my mod and it takes only about 1 hour to update it all using WinMerge. It's not really a big deal IMO. :)

Now I have to wave the white flag. :D
 
Now I have to wave the white flag. :D

It's true that basic balance fixes aren't all that difficult to correct after a new patch comes out. Changes to UI files on the other hand - those get a bit more complicated. In UI xml, the order of code matters - whereas in general xml updates/rows, order only matters in regards to the activation of files, (provided your coding is accurate in the first place). This is more where I'm coming from as far as NiGHTS is concerned. Seeing that NiGHTS focuses a great deal on UI alterations, a little documentation on hidden changes/updates to UI files would really help with the patch transitions. That being said, I realize there aren't that many UI mods out there - so the adverse effects of this latest patch may not be as deeply felt on all levels. Overall, i can't complain - as long as the base game continues to get supported.
 
I admire the whole CIV-community and especially the modders!

Much has been said about Civ 5 and its failures. I guess every active CIV-er knows, that there is a lot of improvement to be done on this game. And we are all looking forward to that. The game needs to be improved, and that will undoubtely have an impact on any mod that was already made. I am sure that the modders know that very well.

The resoultion out of this simply can not be, that Firaxis/2k stops to improve the game.
 
It is impractical for developers to prioritize mod compatibility while making a patch. It complicates the patching process, introduces more possibilities for errors, makes the patched code less efficient, turns repeated maintenance on the same area of code into a messy hassle, and even if it works perfectly, the majority of players (who don't use mods) see no benefit.

That said, for those players who do use (or create) mods, compatibility-breaking patches are often a mess indeed. However, with all Civ games prior to Civ5, this was never a _huge_ problem. If a patch destroyed compatibility with a mod you wanted to play, you downgraded your Civ - in the worst case you'd reinstall and then patch the game to exactly the level you wanted. It took a bit of time, but it's still a much more practical solution than complicating the code and risking more errors.

So the problem is not that patches break mods. The problem is that Steam auto-patches your game and you can't choose to stay (or reinstall) on a lower level compatible to your mods. That could be solved by Steam, but as far as I've heard, they have no intention to do so. (My info is a couple of months old here though, so if something has changed, please correct me.)

And the second problem is that 2k marketing tried to make us think that patches _wouldn't_ break mods. During the Steam debates, people predicted exactly the state that we have now (repeatedly broken mods). 2k Greg's answers were:

"we have every interest in making our game backwards compatible. Please don't jump to conclusions based simply on how Civilization 4 works, because Civilization V is a completely different engine that works in very different ways." (source)

"We do not review mods so we can’t speak to the effect patches may have on every mod’s functionality. At the same time, ensuring that our platform remains stable and backward-compatible is a priority." (from the Official Steam FAQ)

Oddly enough, the Civ5 engine behaves exactly like Civ4 (and 99% of comparable games) in that regard, and the backward-compatibility of the platform has been flushed with every single patch ...

Please note: I don't criticize Firaxis/2k for making patches that break mods. As I said above, any other approach would be impractical imho. But when customers tell a company beforehand that things will break, and if the company then rejects these predictions as "jumping to conclusions" and even hints at having some magical solution to the problem, and if sometime later things happen exactly as predicted by the customers and the company's statement wasn't worth the time to read it - that, I think, is a bit shoddy.

I think that Greg was wrong because neither he, nor almost anybody else, predicted the huge backlash when the game was released in such an unfinished state. Possibly later, "traditional" patches (aka, minor ones) won't cause so many problems for mods. But right now, they're just rewriting so much of the code that's it's not surprising at all that mod's are getting broken.

It's possible, but impractical to avoid this due to the nature of computer program compatibility. Each patch modifies some code, and if our own version doesn't reflect that change then things just won't be compatible, not much way around that.

I've got tens of thousands of lines of code in my mod, and when big patches like this one are released it takes only about 1 hour to update it all using WinMerge. It's not really a big deal IMO. :)

Wow. Sounds like it's a bit easier to update these days than in the past. Thanks for the info!
 
i think its not really firaxis job to make sure the game's going to be compatible with the mods.
maybe we can get a like a revert to past version of Civ where a mod works
or the modders can update to the newer version of Civ.
if your good enough to create an awesome mod, you're probably good enough to tweak it a bit in short time to fit the latest version of the CivV
 
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