New pitboss

[ReallyEvilMuff]

I have one question just out of curiosity - did you really saw his stack 2 turns ago advancing towards you?

Yes. There is my screenshot of the issue. My sentry warrior was on the tile labeled '1' at the start of turn 101 to be out of sight of the borders, and when turn 101 started I was on tile '1' and he the forest with the unit quantities I labeled at the time, and some (3?) workers. That was when I first saw the imminent invasion. The others had to have come from behind that initial tile (there was a cata or 2 behind it IIRC, but cannot say much without the save to refer to) I do not know how the moves were conducted after that until the situation which we are at now, but Caledorn has stated that they were moved each turn after reviewing the save files. There is no way they could have reached where they are now not moving both this turn and last turn, and we can see clearly that the main units have movement points left to use this turn. Ergo, they must have moved last turn like Caledorn stated that they had moved. How else would they have got there this turn with movement points?

Initially I had thought that they had slow moved there, so I was confused when I saw full movement points for this turn. But now I scanned the game and with the road to the west of my warrior I didn't notice before (after pillaging the road on the tile I was on), and full movement point this turn for part of the stack I saw start of turn t101 they must have moved in that previous turn to reach there.

It's all about the sentries! I had one on the other possible side he could attack from too.

 

[2metraninja]

So you knew HBHR is coming for you since 3 turns, but you did nothing? Can you tell me again what was exactly the problem? That you could had pillaged the road so some units were going to be 1 tile behind?

For me the fact that those units still have movement points means that they were there the turn before that? ANd were not moved this turn. So no double-moving units which can interact with yours there are?

Guys, this is such a mess. I keep repeating that it was all going to be avoided if we followed the simple rule with examples that were posted in the rules section.

 

[ReallyEvilMuff]

No I knew HBHR was coming at the start of turn 101, so he moved into my visibility at the end of turn 100. From that point I assumed a war split was in place, edited builds and moved units to counter this. So I had last turn and this current turn, and he will be in my borders next turn.

The warrior is just an aside, I expected him to die after I moved him there, I am not bothered or concerned with him. The pillage was an ad hoc move with a unit I sent there to see if there were any more units behind the main stack, and expected to perish when HBHR played his turn 101.

My point is that the whole benefit of moving second in turn is to give your opponent 1 less turn to react. Thus moving into my warriors view in the second half of the turn starts the turn split, as you have gained that benefit. At least that is what I thought, but I wasn't 100% sure, so I asked for a ruling and caledorn gave his verdict.

This is on the back of running down the turn timer without ending it, and jumping in the second the turn rolled. I think that this is a bit foul, especially as from the previous posts I have quoted it is clear that HBHR thinks that that has claimed him the ability to move first in the war, as otherwise I will double move him.

The warrior was at points able to interact with his units, but also as the war dec was obviously coming in the next 2 turns, I thought that warranted a turn split. Note that aggressive action of razing roads can take place. What if the turn had rolled a bit later and I had got in first? I would not have had any qualms with the way this had been handled.

For the record, I do not think this would have been avoided 2metra. I would have not ended my turn, and tired to play immediately as the turn rolled to preserve the turn order that I thought had already started. Otherwise we are in the situation of whoever can access the computer at the right time (IE the turn roll) is at an advantage, which I think is plain wrong. That is why I thought a turn split was in place from that point on. I would have ended up trying to do the same thing to get back on an equal footing. I just don't see how it can be fair that the person who can log in the quickest has the advantage of moving first, after the advantage of less production IE moving second has already occurred.

So all I want is for the turn split to be maintained. I actually lose out from this, as he has got more units past my warrior on that road than he should have with gaming the timer to play the second the turn rolled. But I do not mind that for the sake of preventing a reload.

I agree it is a mess, but I only asked for a ruling. We got that, then we had a subsequent issue with were the units moved or not moved which turned out to be false from the admin verifying the save files. I would have been mildly annoyed if it was deemed there was no double move, but again would have tried to double move back next turn anyway - this is why I think this ruling is important. Else is quickly spirals out of control and makes the game a right mess.

 

[2metraninja]

I believe there were no rules broken and thus no need for admin involvement at all.

We spoke with Caledorn over chat about it and we both agree the rules for this game does not forbid everyone playing where he can or want if he is not involved in a war or if he is not going to declare a war in this turn and his opponent did not had the chance to react since his previous play.

As I said earlier too, if you feel you were being cheaply tricked, you can try to play first in the next turn too.

We still need to find a substitute for HBHR if somehow miraculous he dont change his decision and come back to the game. I think best is to keep the game paused until such replacement is found or HBHR is back.

 

[Caledorn]

I believe there were no rules broken and thus no need for admin involvement at all.

We spoke with Caledorn over chat about it and we both agree the rules for this game does not forbid everyone playing where he can or want if he is not involved in a war or if he is not going to declare a war and his opponent did not had the chance to react since his previous play.

As I said earlier too, if you feel you were being cheaply tricked, you can try to play first in the next turn too.

We still need to find a substitute for HBHR if somehow miraculous he dont change his decision and come back to the game. I think best is to keep the game paused until such replacement is found or HBHR is back.

I think it is appopriate that I confirm this. That was also my original intent when I stated that the best solution is that there is no reload in this post, and that the game continues as it is with REM getting the option of (peace time) double moving back, as that would not be against the rules. Why HBHR considers me a bad admin because I did not want to reload the game, and just let the game continue, I do not know - but that's also not very relevant.

As I told 2metra in our chat, I did some mistakes when I attempted to make a ruling on this issue. One of them was that I actually forgot that I can check the savegames, which was a grave error that I apologise to everyone for. It would have been extremely embarrasing for me if the savegames had indeed shown that the units hadn't been moved at all. I have shown the screens from turn 100, 101 and 102 to 2metraninja in our chat, so he can confirm that REM did not cheat or tell a lie as HBHR claims in one of his posts (I feel it is important that accusations like that are clarified to be unjustified, so noone starts to have doubts about REM because of this incident). For this mistake I can indeed be called a bad admin, but I hope that it is a forgiveable offense - I don't think it is very likely that I will ever forget the option of looking at the savegames again in the future after this incident, so lesson learned.

Finally, I just need to tell you all the same thing I told 2metraninja. It was never my intention to force rules upon anyone. Another mistake I did was to not make my initial ruling final, but in this case that is not an unfortunate mistake like forgetting I have the option to check the savegames. If I had made my first ruling final and non-debateable, then that ruling would have been based on an unfair basis (not having reviewed the saves - and it doesn't matter if the saves did confirm what REM said, as I should have reviewed them firsthand), and I would have forced undesireable rules upon you who play in this game that you did not sign up for. In the posts where I do my rulings I have stated that if anyone has problems/issues with my ruling that the ruling is open to debate. That's not a good thing to do as a game admin, but at the same time in this specific case it actually prevented a disastrous ruling from my side, that I would have been forced to withdraw.

As for all the quarreling between 2metra and me, please just disregard it. We have cleared it all up in private, and there is nothing unresolved between us.

TL;DR: The game continues without a reload since no rules have been broken, REM has the option to "double move" HBHR (or any new player) back, as they are not at war - and the rules in post 1 remain exactly as they are, no changes. In short, I am not intervening in any way at all. And I also think the game should be left on pause until either HBHR returns, or a replacement player can be found.

 

[Caledorn]

I just login the pitboss, and capture evidence, just for the records... I have 7 elephant and three catapults in forrest near to REM borders, i don't move THIS units in turn 102, neither turn 101. Caledorn, can you send me the save of turn 101? since now i'm not playing this pitboss, i can see it without problem. Ican't upload files (perhaps i don't know how) but i can send the screenshots to any player at g-m-a-i-l perhaps?

And REM, don't you see this troops at side to your borders? awesome...

Edit: yooohoooo,finally, i can attach the jpg files...
Other players, yours conclusions

Best regards

1. I could send you the save game, but you wouldn't be able to do anything with it as you would need the admin password to load the game. Obviously I cannot give you the admin password, as that would enable you to log in to this Pitboss game as any civ. I apologise if that sounds harsh, but while I don't think you would actually do log in and sabotage the game, it would ruin the game completely if you decided that you wanted to do that since I would not be able to stop you in any way, as that password can not be changed (You could log in and sabotage, I would reload, and you could just repeat - eventually I'd just have to shut down the game). I am quite sure all the other players who are left agrees that I should not risk their game by sharing that password with neither you nor anyone else.

2. As for your screenshots, they show turn 102. They show that some of your units have movement points left, which means they got to that tile on the previous turn. In turn 101 the stack that is shown in your images, that is now located on a forested tile just beside REM's border, is actually two stacks - where one half of the stack is located in the jungle 1 tile east of the forest, and the other half of the stack is located in the jungle with pigs 2 tiles east, 1 tile north of the forest. The half of the stack standing on the junglepigs must have moved across the plain tile to get to the forest tile sometime during T101, while the other half must have moved directly onto the forest from the jungle. 2metraninja can confirm this as he has seen the screenshots, and I have given him my blessing to post the screens here if he wants.

 

[HBHR]

This.

So, my final ruling is then as follows:

In this specific incident, to avoid further slowdown in the gameplay, REM is allowed to double move HBHR in the next turn. This means that HBHR shall not log in next turn until after REM has logged in and played his turn. Alternatively, if a reload to the previous turn is absolutely necessary, I will have to rule that a war declaration can only happen this turn (that means that if I reload to the previous turn, no war declaration can be made on the previous turn. but must wait until the previous turn has been finished by all players). Please consider the implications of nearly everyone having to play two turns over again though before forcing me to do a reload.

For the remainder of this game, rule #7 also means this:

"The responsibility for performing double moves lies on the player. It is fully your duty to take care of everyone to be happy with how are you making moves. If you see that you are going to interact with a potential enemy you must comply turn order. It can be 1 turn before the war is declared or even more. In a doubtful situation better let your opponent move first."

Do note that this is almost a perfect copy of how my original interpretation of how the "Do not be a jerk" applies to pre-war time double moves.

As for the settlers issue that was really just an example on my part, please ignore anything related to settlers for this game and move them as you see fit yourself. I will not allow reloads or penalise anyone for double moving settlers, as my ruling only applies to pre-war double moves.

And finally, I will not engage in a discussion about "How many turns is the correct amount of turns before declaring a war?". The ruling I have done clearly states that it can be 1 turn, or more, and it also clearly states that if you are in doubt, then you should let your opponent move first. If another situation like this arises, I will make any future rulings based on this same interpretation, and I will rely on player reports to make a ruling if that should happen. If I find that someone has obviously done pre-war double moves, I will give penalties (where the harsher ones would be orders to skip a turn of movement for units, deletion of units, and so forth) on the offending party, as there is a clear precedent being set here in this ruling. Does anyone have any major issue with this precedent?

Caledorn, THIS, was your final ruling about that... really unbiased ruling. You make your decission believing to REM and don't seein by yourself inside the game the reality. You said i was a jerk by double moving to REM, and REM accept that. I don't broke any rule, and you BLAME me of to be a jerk and dishonoured player. and you ask me why i said you are bad admin?
I'm not going to play this pitboss anymore, REM is not ethical player, he see my troops in turn 100, not 101 how he said, and he know i don't double move him with the relevant troops, and don't say nothing about that. In the picture, in turn 102, the 7 WE and 3 cats, are in forrest WITHOUT road, so, how can they have move and still have movements points left?
And Caledorn, if you fear i can "destroy" the pitboss, remember that "el ladrón juzga por su condición" you can google it... is a coloquial phrase used in my country (it is not rude). i believe you fear this evidence you was wrong in your decission.

Best regard,

 

[Caledorn]

Caledorn, THIS, was your final ruling about that... really unbiased ruling. You make your decission believing to REM and don't seein by yourself inside the game the reality. You said i was a jerk by double moving to REM, and REM accept that. I don't broke any rule, and you BLAME me of to be a jerk and dishonoured player. and you ask me why i said you are bad admin?
I'm not going to play this pitboss anymore, REM is not ethical player, he see my troops in turn 100, not 101 how he said, and he know i don't double move him with the relevant troops, and don't say nothing about that. In the picture, in turn 102, the 7 WE and 3 cats, are in forrest WITHOUT road, so, how can they have move and still have movements points left?
And Caledorn, if you fear i can "destroy" the pitboss, remember that "el ladrón juzga por su condición" you can google it... is a coloquial phrase used in my country (it is not rude). i believe you fear this evidence you was wrong in your decission.

Best regard,

"Does anyone have any major issue with this precedent?" is what I wrote in the end of that "final ruling", because I knew that I would not want to force an unfair ruling on you or anyone else. So all that was needed was to dispute the ruling, and I would have been open to change it, and this is what happened when 2metra disputed my ruling and we talked it over in our private chat.

About the WE and cats in the forest without road, you can see that they have moves left on your own picture, since they have a green dot? A unit that has no moves left will show a red dot, while a unit with moves left shows a green dot. They would all have a red dot if they were moved onto the forest this turn - T102.

As for my decision, I have already admitted that it was wrong, and I have even apologised to both you and the other players for basing it on wrong assumptions, and withdrawn the ruling. It has already been established that the only correct way to proceed, as no rules have been broken by either you or REM, is to do absolutely nothing at all and let the game continue. Through this, I am actually not influencing the game in any way at all, and I am letting the game continue where it left off before REM asked for a ruling, so I have absolutely no idea why you are angry with me.

I'm sorry if our views on that differ, and I'm sorry it you legitimately believe that you are being treated unfairly - if you want, I will not stop you from asking the other players to vote on whether you are being treated unfairly, but I don't understand how I can treat you unfairly when the end result is that I am not doing anything at all to influence the game.

As for a reload, you can also ask for that, but I am not the one who decides whether or not to grant that because there has not been any rules broken. You have to ask the other players to vote for that if you want a reload - and I will reload if a majority vote decides that a reload should be done.

 

[2metraninja]

Come on, HBHR, everyone can be mad at something. But do not throw away the game you've been playing for months already. And how fair is this to the other players? What am I or Ot4e or Hercules or Elkad or anyone else guilt to have the game slowed down or even destroyed? We need you to come and continue playing. You have your army and your skills. I do not think half a turn can make that big of a difference. Come back to the game and prove your words were not only empty threats of an angry man. Play the game man.

I recently joined the APT tournament and I am playing my first game there. Is this what I should expect? Quitters?

Come on man, a lot of things had been said, some right, some wrong, some harsh, main thing is the game must go on. Be a mano 'bout it.

 

[ReallyEvilMuff]

Well obviously I would have preferred a ruling to the contrary, not only for my own benefit this war but just because I think as I have stated before that it allows annoying clock games, and racing to play a turn. I would not have ended my turn if I knew this were the case, but I shall abide by the ruling as it seems that is what the game players want.

With regards to your units HBHR, nothing has actually changed at all. There has been a ruling that the game should carry on as normal, and you were not worried about a reload at all until this happened. And as I said I just cannot believe that you can log in the minute the turn rolls but not anytime beforehand.
Plus we also have Caledorn and 2metra both stating that you have moved your units each turn, until this turn and that I did not say anything untrue. So I am really unsure as to why you are so adamant they weren't moved. I agree that the stack was moved to that tile turn 100, but I could only see it turn 101 as you played after me turn 100.

I do think you have harshly treated caledorn here too btw. He has looked in and found out the truth, and even shared the findings with another player for corroboration.

But all of this is besides the point now - our ruling is unless you declare war, then you cannot double move anyone. The reload point is moot too as it has been found that all the units have been moved. So this needs no further discussion, other than who will play on for sumeria? Obviously the game remains paused until a player is found. I understand you have a possible replacement already 2metra?

 

[classical_hero]

Based on what I see the ruling is that you can't double move during peace, so if that is the case then REM can simply play the turn first if he watches the timer and move first. But what you are asking for is a for there to be double moves during peace, which if that is the case, then you have done it yourself since you had been planning for war and tried to game the timer for your benefit but then it would be violating what you want.

 

[Hercules90]

I have joined to say I applaud Caledorn for being big enough to reflect on earlier adjudications he made.

I followed the rationale in the postings.

In the end, I think there was a misunderstanding by both HBHR and REM about what moves are not forbidden in peace time in this particular game on CFC.

Also this game at the moment does not pre-allocate war turn order based on previous play order behaviour in peace time.

But once war is declared, 2metraninja has set out the rules in the first posts.

I, for one, did not know about the wider interpretation of 'don't be a jerk' at RB.

I thought it just was a general call to be courteous and avoid getting petty over minor issues.

 

[Hercules90]

Based on what I see the ruling is that you can't double move during peace, so if that is the case then REM can simply play the turn first if he watches the timer and move first. But what you are asking for is a for there to be double moves during peace, which if that is the case, then you have done it yourself since you had been planning for war and tried to game the timer for your benefit but then it would be violating what you want.

A small correction. Maybe I am wrong

I think you mean 'you can't be faulted for double moving during peace', it is not against the rules in this pitboss.

What was in dispute was how you decide who got the first half or second half.

 

[2metraninja]

A small correction. Maybe I am wrong

I think you mean 'you can't be faulted for double moving during peace', it is not against the rules in this pitboss.

That is correct. Moving twice in a row is fine if you are not declaring a war or already in war.

 

[Caledorn]

Thank you, Hercules90

I don't know how long you guys want to wait for hbhr. Obviously the best thing would be if he continued to play himself, as a replacement player will be put in a rather crucial situation where hbhr knows exactly what he has been planning, where as a replacement player will not be absolutely certain what the plan is (unless hbhr is willing to share that is).

However, if you want a replacement player to take over, just let me know, and I'll do the necessary preparation of resigning Sumeria to the AI so a new player can log in.

 

[Friendly Fire]

Well, those were 5 pages of acrimony and pseudo-legalise that I hadn't imagined such a seemingly good natured and adult game as this would provoke.

As a means of moving forward would it not just be the simplest option to kick the Sumerians to AI and hope that REM doesn't kill them before a replacement player is found? You cannot double-move the AI so the turn order is already set and that is making the assumption that they would declare war anyway.

 

[sinimusta]

Well, those were 5 pages of acrimony and pseudo-legalise that I hadn't imagined such a seemingly good natured and adult game as this would provoke.

As a means of moving forward would it not just be the simplest option to kick the Sumerians to AI and hope that REM doesn't kill them before a replacement player is found? You cannot double-move the AI so the turn order is already set and that is making the assumption that they would declare war anyway.

Well, that would be the simplest thing. But that would have balance issues. The quality of AI is inferior to human playing (sure there are differences in player skill, but still) and it would make things a lot easier for REM and also other neighbours of HBHR. After being some critical turns under AI control I think the Sumerian empire would become a lot less attractive for any replacement players. So if we decide to let AI take over I think it would easily become the permanent situation rather than temporary.

I think we should still wait some time for a replacement and advertise more. While this is pitboss game, the pitboss section has been inactive so long I doubt there are many viewers outside this game. Then again there were some people interested in joining this game earlier, maybe some of those could join. Maybe advertise at the pbem section?

If it becomes apparent we won't be getting a replacement any time soon, then I think it's ok to turn over Sumer to AI.

I don't think it is too wise to post screenies here instead of just to admin. They reveal some info about your civ and also other civs (so it's not just your problem) and overall map positions other players wouldn't otherwise know. So I recommend to only reveal about your civ only what you're ready to reveal and about other civs what you absolutely must. For example I recommend editing out the minimap.

 

[2metraninja]

Kicking Sumeria to AI will be terrible unbalancing.

Come on guys, spread the word - friends, enemies, we need 1 player. He dont even have to be a good one.

I found 1 yesterday who said will play, but he backed out when he understood this is game with diplomacy, as he said he have no time for negotiating.

Come on guys, someone from the PBEM community? Someone from other sites you play games at?

 

[Caledorn]

Well, those were 5 pages of acrimony and pseudo-legalise that I hadn't imagined such a seemingly good natured and adult game as this would provoke.

As a means of moving forward would it not just be the simplest option to kick the Sumerians to AI and hope that REM doesn't kill them before a replacement player is found? You cannot double-move the AI so the turn order is already set and that is making the assumption that they would declare war anyway.

I absolutely laughed out loud by the irony of that first sentence (very well written btw I have to admit! Kudos!) being written by "Friendly Fire".

As for kicking to AI, that's a very bad solution as the previous post explains. I would strongly recommend against doing that, even if it would get the game moving quicker.

 

[classical_hero]

Well hopefully Luthor can replace him.