"New World" Expansion... or lack of it!!!

[Thorburne]

So, I've been playing a map that I created which is Earth-like (meaning it has continents roughly in the place of the America's, Europe, Africa and the Middle East). I have 14 Civs and 20 City-States all concentrated in the Europe-Africa-Middle East section of the map. I have made it to the Industrial era and many of the Civs are about there as well. The problem that I see is that while access to the "New World" has been available for many Civs for a while, None have expanded to it. Even despite congestion in the "Old World". While I do think Civ V has had this problem all along, I believe that BNW enhances this problem with the additional "Penalties" that they have put in place for expansion. This is a bit frustrating. There are even resources that are available in the "New World" that aren't available in the "Old World"

Well, not only do I have a problem, but I have a rough sketch of a solution. They should allow for the creation of Colonies. Colonies, could be like a Puppeted city, maybe with limited buildings available, but less of a impact on unhappiness than regular puppets. Also, maybe only one Colony could be Annexed per continent. This would allow for expansion, lessening the negative impact (but not "erasing" it) and allow the player (or the A.I.) to gain access to new resources. Not to mention be less boring and add some "Age of Discovery" excitement to the game.

Well, as I said, it is a rough sketch. I just hate being limited and the fact that the AI won't expand to other continents is aggravating and takes the fun out of those types of maps or scenarios.

 

[Callonia]

Like i said before.... The current happiness system just sucks xD

 

[Veneke]

I'd play on until the modern era or so. I've noticed that the AI stays small until the mid-late Industrial and then proceeds to spam cities everywhere. If you're lucky, the AI will start to do the same in your game.

 

[cakes]

they're just not brave enough for the new world

 

[otaman1]

If they don't spam the new world, then why won't you do it yourself? Spam the whole continent and get all the goods (I'm guessing cotton only exist there and if corn was a resource, I would guess that too)

 

[Princeofnigeria]

they're just not brave enough for the new world

perhaps they should beg their gods and kings for faith...

 

[Abraxis]

they're just not brave enough for the new world

Actually this could be the case. If someone spearheads the new world colonization, making a nice trade city on that side of the pond, others might follow. It's the first who will take the brunt of the economic burden, everyone after that should have an easier and easier time with the economic infrastructure layed out by the civs that have already build cities there. At least that could be the reason, I havn't played many new world maps.

 

[Cissnei]

I have so many things i would improve about this game T_T

 

[Callonia]

If you want Civs to settle into the new world, you have to make it worth their while.

We found america because we thought it was worth our while.

Atm the encouragement for settling into the new world is..

Find natural wonders at 1 happiness a discovery.. Not worthwhile.

Maybe 1-2 new luxuries that you don't have access to yet.. Not worthwhile settling beyond 1-2 cities for.

Any strategic resources you desperately need access to.. 1 city per new type of strategic resource... Worthwhile if it's needed for self defense.

Ok thats all That's the incentive for settling into the new world.

If you're having happiness issues.. new world would only make it more worse on you than help because all you gain is 4 unhappy faces at cost of settling a city for that single luxury which makes you have no net gain but in fact, drive you further into unhappiness debt as population of that city grows.

Honestly.... Me and civ 5 simply don't get along at all.

At least in civ 4 you had reason for settling into new world..

Cash!
Strategics!
Empire building!

Civ 5...

Do we have enough happiness to do this?
do we have enough happiness to expand in new world?
Do we even have enough happiness to do anything at all!?
Why are our people dying of butthurt as we settle into the new world for land of new opportunities and resources!?

 

[Thorburne]

I'd play on until the modern era or so. I've noticed that the AI stays small until the mid-late Industrial and then proceeds to spam cities everywhere. If you're lucky, the AI will start to do the same in your game.

I am very close to the modern age. I think I did finally see ONE civ (Assyria, who still has a large area in his homeland left unsettled) plop a city in what would be South America.

If they don't spam the new world, then why won't you do it yourself? Spam the whole continent and get all the goods (I'm guessing cotton only exist there and if corn was a resource, I would guess that too)

Actually, I have already started. Shortly after "discovering" the new world, I started sending settlers out there and now have a good little New World Civ (thanks in part to the trade route sending production to one of them from the "Old World").

If you want Civs to settle into the new world, you have to make it worth their while.

We found america because we thought it was worth our while.

Atm the encouragement for settling into the new world is..

Find natural wonders at 1 happiness a discovery.. Not worthwhile.

Maybe 1-2 new luxuries that you don't have access to yet.. Not worthwhile settling beyond 1-2 cities for.

Any strategic resources you desperately need access to.. 1 city per new type of strategic resource... Worthwhile if it's needed for self defense.

Ok thats all That's the incentive for settling into the new world.

If you're having happiness issues.. new world would only make it more worse on you than help because all you gain is 4 unhappy faces at cost of settling a city for that single luxury which makes you have no net gain but in fact, drive you further into unhappiness debt as population of that city grows.

Honestly.... Me and civ 5 simply don't get along at all.

At least in civ 4 you had reason for settling into new world..

Cash!
Strategics!
Empire building!

Civ 5...

Do we have enough happiness to do this?
do we have enough happiness to expand in new world?
Do we even have enough happiness to do anything at all!?
Why are our people dying of butthurt as we settle into the new world for land of new opportunities and resources!?

There is also land. That is another incentive to expand. A few Civs are tightened up in the "Old World" and don't have room to grow. That should be another incentive. I think the problem comes from the Science nerf that they implemented in BNW. The fact that more cities and city-states increase the tech costs of new techs. I can see the rationalization of the science change, but I think it is a big deterrent for AI Civs to expand to the new world.

 

[Veneke]

If you want Civs to settle into the new world, you have to make it worth their while.

We found america because we thought it was worth our while.

Atm the encouragement for settling into the new world is..

Find natural wonders at 1 happiness a discovery.. Not worthwhile.

Maybe 1-2 new luxuries that you don't have access to yet.. Not worthwhile settling beyond 1-2 cities for.

Any strategic resources you desperately need access to.. 1 city per new type of strategic resource... Worthwhile if it's needed for self defense.

Ok thats all That's the incentive for settling into the new world.

Ironically that reflects reality pretty well. Most colonial nations rarely settled further than the coastline, inland territory was usually captured and held at gunpoint for immediate resource extraction, held by using local power structures to ensure minimum European involvement or held in name only. The only exceptions to this were places like Canada and Australia which largely developed for military purposes (Canada) or to deal with domestic problems (Australia).

What initially drove European settlement was trade with the Far East and resource extraction from America and was largely subsequently driven by a contemporary moral issues and a perceived need to compete with other colonial powers; neither of which are significant factors in-game as you are unable to chain trade routes and expansion is usually the least efficient way to improve your score.

I am very close to the modern age. I think I did finally see ONE civ (Assyria, who still has a large area in his homeland left unsettled) plop a city in what would be South America.

What difficulty level are you on? It's possible that's making an impact on how late into the game the AI goes on its settling spam. My experience of the growth in AI cities was on Immortal where a few of them go absolutely nuts settling from the mid/late-Industrial onwards.

 

[Gyra Solune]

This kind of thing is why I think trade routes should be based on number of cities rather than arbitrary increases at certain techs. There's too much discouraging expansion, especially by the time you could cross the ocean, and barely enough incentive. If you got a trade route for each city and an additional one for each caravansary and harbor, then you would be encouraged to grow for economic opportunities, both early on and throughout the game. Around the time of the Renaissance, the Old World would likely be filled up and expansion limited, so you'd seek to head elsewhere to gain more trade routes for more wealth to supply the ever increasing financial demands of your empire.

Right now though a large empire simply doesn't have much advantages, and expanding to dominate a continent is often a bad idea, which just seems completely backwards. You're supposed to want more lands as most empires have throughout history, but right now you gain far more from just sitting with a tiny amount of cities and spamming trade routes, since the amount of money you can make from those is based chiefly on tech progress and not how many locations you actually have to trade from.

 

[Strategist83]

1) The current BNW AI seems broken. As the OP notes, it is *extremely* reluctant to expand. I don't know what they did to it, but I've yet to see it hold more than four cities - four being when it goes 'wide', three appearing to be the norm - for all my played games. AI will sit around with 50+ happiness and build no cities. Yeah, seems about right, Firaxis!

2) The notion that there is no incentive to expand is ridiculous. There is plenty to gain by expanding, a fact which also becomes evident in my games where I'll claim all the lands the AIs for whatever reason dont make use of and pull way ahead in score from this. Just because a large amount of gold income is now centered around trade doesn't make expanding useless - trading posts are as viable as ever if gold is what you're after, but any type of empire will want to expand. There is a whole lot of happiness available in the ideology tenets, and everybody should have build a good number of cities by the endgame - if anything, there has arguably never been less reason not to expand, since even a cultural victory will now not suffer from expansion.

I think I'll try putting Hiawatha in one of my next games, just to see. If that guy also no longer expands, then they definitely broke something hard!

 

[Singularitie]

People also wanted to get away from cramped cities or live a new life where they could start over. Come to think of it, there should be unhappiness from not having enough cities.

 

[Gucumatz]

Playing a standard continents game as Morocco and of the 8 original civs only 4 survive, me the Huns, the Zulu and Portugal. The Zulu and Portugal raised up a giant navy and took out the civs on the opposite continent and have proceeded to spam cities on our continent and the other continent. Not wanting to lose the entire continent to the other civs to make them even larger runaways I sent a few cities there too to get a foothold.

It partially depends on the civs you play against too.

The Zulu IE never STOP expanding

 

[Magean]

I had the same disappointment with a Terra map (those maps where all major civs start on the same continent, and where there's an empty continent left for late game colonization).

At G&K's release, AI almost never expanded oversea.
With the Fall patch, they finally did it and such maps became much more interesting to play. I had tried a TSL earth, and Persia settled colonies in California, Brazil (well, in the middle of Amazonia, without coastal cities and possible capital connexions - but you can't have it all...) and Australia. I fought interesting colonial wars there. Arabia also settled in Australia, and Germany took a big chunk of North America.

Now, with BNW, looks like that AI once again don't bother about the New World. What a shame.

 

[Thorburne]

What difficulty level are you on? It's possible that's making an impact on how late into the game the AI goes on its settling spam. My experience of the growth in AI cities was on Immortal where a few of them go absolutely nuts settling from the mid/late-Industrial onwards.

That's one thing. I typically play around warlord or prince. Since I am still getting used to BNW, I chose Warlord (or, at least I thought I did.) However, the map shows difficulty 2 (chieftan, I believe).

Sent from my LG-C800 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Unholy_Prince]

That's one thing. I typically play around warlord or prince. Since I am still getting used to BNW, I chose Warlord (or, at least I thought I did.) However, the map shows difficulty 2 (chieftan, I believe).

Sent from my LG-C800 using Tapatalk 2

Well there you have it.

Playing on Emp/Immortal, I've seen no difference in the AI's tendancy to settle anywhere and everywhere.

 

[Teholb]

I havfe noticed a difference on Emp. They seem to settle a first wave of three-four cities fairly quickly, and then nothing happens for a while. Suddenly, sometime around the Medieval era, everyone goes all manifest-destiny on the available territory. Then sometime later ideologies kick in and those borders erupt. Sometimes not so much, though. It really depends on which civs are in game in BNW, much more so than it used to. In the days of Elizabethan terror fleets taking any port in sight.

 

[Buccaneer]

On my continents map on Immortal, both Morocco and Incas are expanding into every nook and cranny available after Industrial. The Huns expanded like crazy on many small landmasses and islands much earlier in the game.