News: COTM60 Pre-Game Discussion

[civ_steve]

COTM 60: America!

With a lot of things going on, I will admit that this game is not as developed as I wanted. After all, this marks the end of 5 years of COTM! So I had in mind a few fun things to add to the game, but the editor is not cooperating as well as I'd like. Sigh. So we'll be playing America, on Demigod, and I can definitely say we'll have some minor civs in play, of a variety that one would imagine one should have. And if I can add some of the other twists, well, I'll probably announce them.

(Edit - I modeled the 3 minor civs after Native American tribes; please note the section on the game download page. Essentially, these minor civs can not build any more Settlers, no Swordsmen or Chariots, don't get a UU generated Golden Age, and have a special Plains Warrior unit that looks like a Jaguar Warrior, has 1-1-2 Stats like a JW, gets a 1-0-1 defensive bombard and can enslave generating a Worker.)

Civilization: America
Rivals: 11 pre-selected (8 normal, 3 minor)
Barbarians: Roaming
Difficulty: Demigod
Land Form: Continents, 60% ocean, Standard map.
Geology:5 billion years old, Normal and Temperate.
AI Aggression: Normal




Conquest-Class Bonuses:

1. 
   Free Alphabet
   1 free scout and 1 free curragh
   100 Free Gold
   1 bonus luxury nearby

Open-Class Bonuses
None

Predator-Class Obstacles:

1. 
   No Pottery
   No Free Scout (but you can build them)
   Each AI gets 1 Additional Support per city

 

[Lanzelot]

1 free curragh

Does it start somewhere on the coast? (On the three-tile lake we see, it wouldn't be that much help... )

Only one extra-food on Demigod. There must be something in the fog, or otherwise it will be a tough game?!

Lanzelot

 

[Spoonwood]

We can only pop workers from a hut, not settlers, right? This isn't the last COTM, just the 5th anniversary, right? It's interesting that so many COTM now feature extra tribes. That's a good start in my opinion. Question is... do you plant there, move north and plant along that river, or plant on the gold mine for extra commerce? If you think in place or north, I think move the worker to the cow first and then decide, then move the scout the other direction.

 

[civ_steve]

I believe there's a chance for settlers, too, which is one reason why GH's are often eliminated or moved far away, to avoid the random luck factor.

And yes, COTM will continue next month with 61. But it is the 5th anniversary (or more properly, the end of 5 years of COTM.)

 

[Spoonwood]

I believe there's a chance for settlers, too, which is one reason why GH's are often eliminated or moved far away, to avoid the random luck factor.

I understand the sentiment here usually. But, when you play as an *expansionist* tribe (except on Sid), I'd argue that the possibility of a (early) free settler seems half the point of it. I can see how the scientific trait doesn't decline in value too much from not having SGLs, as cheap research buildings and free techs can certainly help in a game where you want serious research. But, if you take away the free settler, what does the expansionist trait really give... quicker contacts, no barbies from huts, a few techs you might have traded for anyways, some gold, and some maps? Sounds good and all, but I think the possibility of a free settler more appealing than all of those combined... and really... is that really enough to put expansionist on the same plane as the other traits? I know I deliberately selected expansionist as a trait for some of my HoF games, and put that early free settler to good use, as have others. Expanionist, in my opinion, is definitely on par with the other traits when you can get a free settler, but not really so much so, when you can't.

 

[civ_steve]

Yes, but the submittals are compared to the other submittals for the current game, so any benefit or penalty (at a given level) are the same. The GH purge has been the general rule (and not always the case) after lots of heated discussion early on about how much an early free Settler benefitted so and so, and if I had gotten a free settler ... etc.

I'm still working on the saves, and I don't anticipate finishing tonight, so the game start will be delayed about a day, and the competition will probably be extended at least one day as well.

 

[Lanzelot]

In my opinion removing the free settler is a must. Otherwise the feature would be too unbalancing, especially for the top players fighting for first place: if two players play with the same skill level and one of them pops a settler from his first hut, while the other pops useless maps, then this annoying luck factor will already decide the outcome of the game!
Expansionist on a large continent or Pangaea is still very strong without the free settlers.

As to the game: I guess I need to brush up my basics again, I never even considered moving the settler...! I thought being on the lake is as good as being on the river, or does the lake only allow growing to 12, but does not add the extra commerce in the city center?
And I always thought, if you settle on a bonus resource, that resource will vanish? (I.e settling on a wheat will not give you two extra food in the city center, and settling on iron will give you the strategic resource, but not the extra shield?! So won't the gold vanish as well, if you settle on it?)

BTW, civ_steve: thanks a lot for the sedentary barbs!! You had them in COTM59 already, and I didn't even notice until someone mentioned it in the first spoiler... (And I had been one of those asking most vehemently for a game with no barbs... )

Lanzelot

 

[templar_x]

As to the game: I guess I need to brush up my basics again, I never even considered moving the settler...! I thought being on the lake is as good as being on the river, or does the lake only allow growing to 12, but does not add the extra commerce in the city center?
And I always thought, if you settle on a bonus resource, that resource will vanish? (I.e settling on a wheat will not give you two extra food in the city center, and settling on iron will give you the strategic resource, but not the extra shield?! So won't the gold vanish as well, if you settle on it?)

only food bonuses get killed under the city center. and true, there´s no extra commerce from a lake, only from a river.

templar_x

 

[Spoonwood]

Maybe everyone should pop a settler from their first hut automatically with an expansionist tribe, or everyone starts with a free settler.

 

[Lanzelot]

and true, there´s no extra commerce from a lake, only from a river.

In that case moving the settler might make sense indeed. However, here is something strange: when I first looked at the start position on my desktop PC, it appeared as if the river bent around the mountain, so the grassland 1N would be on the river. And apparently Spoonwood saw the same:

Question is... do you plant there, move north and plant along that river, ...

In that case settling 1N would make sense as it gains an extra commerce and as irrigating the plain is faster than mining the grassland.
But now that I look at the screenshot again on my laptop, it appears as if the river goes straight NE?! In that case settling 1N wouldn't make any sense at all!

Moving on the gold hill would loose one of the BGs, and perhaps we need that for a settler factory?! I guess not much can be said right now, we need to wait what the scout and the worker find, before deciding where to settle... (I wouldn't be surprised, if staying put is the best option...)

 

[Più Freddo]

In my opinion removing the free settler is a must.

For a very long time already, the Settlers popped from Huts have been replaced by Workers in GOTMs. There's a possibility to do that in the editor by changing a 1 to a 2 or vice versa. What one cannot remove or change is the apperance of a Town from a hut, and that would perhaps be a reason to remove Huts close to the starting position.

Hut popping is a very visible luck factor in the game, but there are quite a few less visible ones as well. Think about I. Larkin's missed Republic Sling-Shot recently. If you can't live with the influence of luck, then choose another game than Civ.

I always thought, if you settle on a bonus resource, that resource will vanish?

Not at all. A food resource will not have any effect as long as it's covered by a city, but it doesn't vanish. Other resources are limited in different ways.

Shield resources are often visible in the city centre as the city grows or as other Governments are used. Not seldom (Plains, BG, Hill, ...) there is an extra shield on growth to size seven, which can be exploited in Settler factories. Settling on Furs on Plains gives two shields in the city centre even for Towns under Despotism.

Commerce resources are limited also by being covered by the commerce bonus in the capital. It pays off more to have a non-capital city on a commerce bonus tile. Even more, eventually, can be exploited by actually working the tile outside of city centres. But it takes time to complete the improvements.

 

[Spoonwood]

Civ_Steve I probably missed this elsewhere, but what do you mean by 'minor' tribes?

 

[Più Freddo]

Civ_Steve I probably missed this elsewhere, but what do you mean by 'minor' tribes?

It usually means that they start with a few cities and can't build any Settlers. So first they are ahead and then they are weak.

 

[civ_steve]

The saves are up!

 

[Lanzelot]

For a very long time already, the Settlers popped from Huts have been replaced by Workers in GOTMs.

My phrasing was probably a bit imprecise: I meant to say "In my opinion removing the free settler was a must." (I knew, it had already been done.)

Hut popping is a very visible luck factor in the game, but there are quite a few less visible ones as well. Think about I. Larkin's missed Republic Sling-Shot recently. If you can't live with the influence of luck, then choose another game than Civ.

I can live with it, but if it's possible to remove one luck factor that has a big impact on the game, then why not remove it? There are still many luck factors (like loosing a Knight against an archer an grass, not getting any elites/leaders for ages etc), but most of them occur in large numbers so from a statistical point of view they "even out" over the course of a game. An early second settler, however, is a game-deciding factor.
Other game-deciding luck factors (like I.Larkin's missed slingshot or the ToA/Pyramids getting built on a small island, etc.) hopefully even out over the course of a couple of months/years... (I mean something like this has probably happened to all of us already, and then there is simply one month, where you don't have a good score.)

BTW: I've also tried chess, before I settled for Civ, and I can confirm that even there there's a big luck factor involved...

Lanzelot

 

[Lanzelot]

COTM 60: America!

Barbarians: Sedentary (note the setting)

On the download page it says "Roaming"?! I hope they are not?

 

[civ_steve]

Sorry, they are roaming. I'll change the entry.

 

[Yilar]

Special Notes for COTM60 To capture some of the flavor of the early expansion of America, this game will feature 3 minor civs that represent 3 native American tribes. They will be close to your starting position. They can not build Settlers (so only 1 city each), they can not build Swordsmen or Chariots (that would be odd!) and their UU does not start a Golden Age for them. I've adapted the Aztec, Incan and Mayan civs to be these minor civs, so you will see some elements of the original civs in terms of leader appearance, etc. All three can build the 'Plains Warrior', which looks like the Aztec Jaguar Warrior. costs 15 shields, has 1-1-2 stats, a 1-0-1 defensive bombard, and can enslave, generating a Worker. All 3 of these minor civs start with Warrior Code, so they can build this Plains Warrior from the start. Without the pressures of needing to expand, these minor civs can build up a pretty large starting force, so be forewarned.

I've started my game, so won't spoilt anything, but demigod means the enemies start with bonus settler, so the above part is incorrect

 

[AutomatedTeller]

In my opinion, putting a cap on a gold hill is a waste, since the cap gets 4 cpt no matter what type of tile it's on, but commerce bonuses aren't added to it.

Other cities get a bonus from sitting on gold - the cap does, too, but you get much more from working the gold hill later.

 

[templar_x]

i, too, have already started and thus avoid spoiler info. i was surprised at one point and re-checked here. but correct, it is only stated that the minor civs cannot build CHARIOTS. but they can build other horse units...