"No Beelines" strategy
- Thread starter krc
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SammyKhalifa
Deity
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One if the many things I liked about SMAC was the random tech discoveries. Some would say that it takes strategy out of the game: I'd say that it removes a "crutch" of getting a certain tech and forces players to adapt to the situation at hand.
EDIT--no, I wouldn't want to play that way all the time either, but it makes for an interesting variation.
EDIT--no, I wouldn't want to play that way all the time either, but it makes for an interesting variation.
Rooftrellen
King
Wonders would be harder to get and war would be more important I imagine for any VC, since you'll want highly promoted units. That would be a change from my normally peaceful early games, since I'd probably declare or at least not care about diplomacy with a neighbor to try to get them to declare at some point.
Hardest to use would be civs that have problems with their UA, UU, or UB due to the slower tech rate. Japan comes to mind instantly, as a civ with late UU's and no real advantage early. With some CS bonuses being based on the age you're in, Siam stands to get less mileage out of it's UA. The Aztecs can't rush anything for their economy, with currency in the classical era and guilds in medieval, meaning they should have a harder time taking advantage of upgrading jaguars and while their UB is also ancient era, it is unfortunately still on a low priority tech, particularly if you're going tall.
Grendeldef
Trancerelic & coffeeholic
I assume this includes stealing techs as well ?
Anyway, I started a deity game with Harun on Pangaea with everything else std and based on this at least domination is doable (with relative ease). This said I may not even win this game but I have few (pathetic) excuses mainly Korea as a runaway. Having a runaway isn't that bad but Korea also being tech lead with 60% (I'm 2nd by 48%) and using GWB & 3-planes behing the GW against my camels hurts. If I'll get Seoul I'll prolly win but I had to pass through two CSs & Carthage to reach Sejong's borders which took precious time.
Oddly enough the game itself hasn't been that different nor did the limitation much slowed down my 1st war against Nebby but had I been able to steal tech(s) from next era it'd been much easier.
G
Terakahn
Chieftain
Try it on Emperor or higher, on the lower difficulties you can really just bluff your way through anything. Emperor maybe even. but it'll definitely be a lot tougher.
krc
King
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The starting position is probably more important than the civilization. Here's my start (on what is supposed to be a "continents" map) for my first attempt at this with Suleiman:
Spoiler :
I played just long enough to confirm that there is no coastal passage to another continent, then decided I didn't have the patience to use "no beelines" to wait for astronomy.
I wish they would bring back more beelines (the upcoming patch makes this less so) for beelines offer a great decision-making choice with consequences of action. Using an extreme example, I don't care in a game like this that your can shoot Artillery shells but don't know how to write. The game should allows us to put all of our eggs in one basket if we choose instead of forcing us into era completions (which was one of the big failures of Civ3).
krc
King
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So, I've now played through two more games with the "no beelines" house rule. Here is an update on how it worked out.
Rome
Rome is a little more -- irritating -- to play, since you have to wait significantly longer before you can get to iron working to see how many legions you can build. I had a couple of false starts where the entire continent ended up with only one 2-iron spot. But on my third try I was able to claim a 6-iron spot (in a location next to Egypt, which was guaranteed to provoke them to DoW) with the same number of warriors ready to upgrade. By the time I hit the industrial era, I was clearly the runaway civ. Going wide with Liberty for Rome works very powerfully with no beelines; you actually get the time to use all of the early-era units for a while.
Ottoman Empire
In response to @smallfish's comment, I then tried a game as Suleiman. This was harder, but part of that may have been attributable to the starting position, which was up near the tundra. I did manage to get the "aurora" pantheon, but was limited in my ability to expand early because Napoleon was my nearest neighbor. I had to fight a tough early defensive war, which turned into an opportunity to capture one French city when Napoleon decided that fighting two wars at once (by DoWing Spain) was better than concentrating on winning just one. I then had to bide my time until I got jannissaries before I could attack. By that point, Nappy had DoWed everyone on my continent (and eliminated Spain), so Germany and Siam remained friends with me while I reduced France to a civ that only controlled one tiny snow-bound city.
Meanwhile, on the other continent, the Iroquois and Mongolia had eliminated the Songhai, and didn't much like each other. I tried being friends with them both for a while, but that clearly wasn't going to work in the long run. Since Hiawatha was clearly a threat to sneak off to a science victory, I eventually sided with Mongolia, and got them to sign a defensive pact. Hiawatha went ahead and attacked Mongolia anyway, which brought me into the war. Interestingly, both Mongolia and Germany remained in DoF's (and RA's) with me for the rest of the game. (Siam was small and irrelevant, but decided to join the Iroquois-France faction.) My war against the Iroquois was fought entirely with naval and air units. (The goal was simply to weaken them enough that they would be unable to get a science victory.) The Ottoman UA may be stronger at the point where destroyers start becoming available, especially when the enemy still has caravels and ironclads around. When you capture one of those ships, you send them home to promote them and regain health, and they come back with the prize ship ability themselves. Eventually, I had the choice of a diplomatic or science victory, and took the diplomatic one just because I felt like it.
Overview
My overall impression at this point is that the"no beelines" rule leads to more interesting games. However, in every one of them, I've had a tech lead by the industrial or modern era that just became more and more overwhelming. So there hasn't been an opportunity to fully use some of the modern units. Although the last war against the Iroquois had a little of that, I never used a tank, helicopter gunship, rocket artillery, or stealth bomber....
If you're not looking for the fastest victory, the "no beelines" rule may actually be fairly strong---at least at king or below.
Rome
Rome is a little more -- irritating -- to play, since you have to wait significantly longer before you can get to iron working to see how many legions you can build. I had a couple of false starts where the entire continent ended up with only one 2-iron spot. But on my third try I was able to claim a 6-iron spot (in a location next to Egypt, which was guaranteed to provoke them to DoW) with the same number of warriors ready to upgrade. By the time I hit the industrial era, I was clearly the runaway civ. Going wide with Liberty for Rome works very powerfully with no beelines; you actually get the time to use all of the early-era units for a while.
Ottoman Empire
In response to @smallfish's comment, I then tried a game as Suleiman. This was harder, but part of that may have been attributable to the starting position, which was up near the tundra. I did manage to get the "aurora" pantheon, but was limited in my ability to expand early because Napoleon was my nearest neighbor. I had to fight a tough early defensive war, which turned into an opportunity to capture one French city when Napoleon decided that fighting two wars at once (by DoWing Spain) was better than concentrating on winning just one. I then had to bide my time until I got jannissaries before I could attack. By that point, Nappy had DoWed everyone on my continent (and eliminated Spain), so Germany and Siam remained friends with me while I reduced France to a civ that only controlled one tiny snow-bound city.
Meanwhile, on the other continent, the Iroquois and Mongolia had eliminated the Songhai, and didn't much like each other. I tried being friends with them both for a while, but that clearly wasn't going to work in the long run. Since Hiawatha was clearly a threat to sneak off to a science victory, I eventually sided with Mongolia, and got them to sign a defensive pact. Hiawatha went ahead and attacked Mongolia anyway, which brought me into the war. Interestingly, both Mongolia and Germany remained in DoF's (and RA's) with me for the rest of the game. (Siam was small and irrelevant, but decided to join the Iroquois-France faction.) My war against the Iroquois was fought entirely with naval and air units. (The goal was simply to weaken them enough that they would be unable to get a science victory.) The Ottoman UA may be stronger at the point where destroyers start becoming available, especially when the enemy still has caravels and ironclads around. When you capture one of those ships, you send them home to promote them and regain health, and they come back with the prize ship ability themselves. Eventually, I had the choice of a diplomatic or science victory, and took the diplomatic one just because I felt like it.
Overview
My overall impression at this point is that the"no beelines" rule leads to more interesting games. However, in every one of them, I've had a tech lead by the industrial or modern era that just became more and more overwhelming. So there hasn't been an opportunity to fully use some of the modern units. Although the last war against the Iroquois had a little of that, I never used a tank, helicopter gunship, rocket artillery, or stealth bomber....
If you're not looking for the fastest victory, the "no beelines" rule may actually be fairly strong---at least at king or below.
krc
King
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It was intended to.... But there may be cases where the only tech you can steal bumps you into the next era earlier than the strict application of the rule would require. For instance, if you are spying on an AI civ that has beelined gunpowder and have completed the prerequisites but have not yet finished the top of the tree for the earlier era, you may be forced to take gunpowder early. (This happened to me in my Ottoman game.)
slapshot2119
Chieftain
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- Feb 28, 2010
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- 96
LOL, me too. For me, it's usually that a missionary has just spread the religion to 3 cities (thanks Gmosque), so I have 3 pagodas and 3 academies to build. Costs 1200 faith now, but if I get banking it becomes 1800. Disparity only increases with future eras.
So it seems that we agree that doing this strate-handicap delays research overall. Cloud's silver lining is that units have a longer shelf life. I'd recommend using holy warriors belief with someone like Attila.
sizesixteens
Chieftain
Frankly, part of me wishes this is how the game was designed in the first place. I'm very partial towards the thematics of a game, and I always scoff at a civ, and sometimes myself, going medieval in 300 BC and Renaissance in 1000 AD.
I haven't tried using the OP's strict rule but I tend to play in a similar way. Earlier techs are faster to grab, and the buildings/units they unlock are in turn built faster, and therefore provide benefits sooner. Even a small boost will eventually turn into a huge lead, as Albert Einstein says: "Compound interest is the most powerful force in the universe."
I haven't tried using the OP's strict rule but I tend to play in a similar way. Earlier techs are faster to grab, and the buildings/units they unlock are in turn built faster, and therefore provide benefits sooner. Even a small boost will eventually turn into a huge lead, as Albert Einstein says: "Compound interest is the most powerful force in the universe."
Do you guys feel these rules really change the way you play? I find most of my games I end up progressing fairly evenly through the tech tree. The game forces you to do so with really hard chokepoints at various parts of the tree. At the most I'm maybe a couple of "levels" down one tech path, and usually not for long.
alpaca
King of Ungulates
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- Aug 3, 2006
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It things pretty dramatically. For example, I almost always beeline Philosophy or Construction (for CBs) at the start of the game. After that, I usually beeline education before getting most of the bottom of the tree. The largest change is probably in the Renaissance: I often beeline to Scientific Theory and Industrialization before I get Steel. When I go for the science victory, I tend to do a deep beeline to Satellites before I get railroads. Deep beelines are good for tech stealing with spies if you're ahead in tech and often yield large benefits if you go for science techs.
krc
King
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- Sep 28, 2010
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- 891
I agree. I had certainly gotten into the habit of using different beelines, depending on the Civ. I would commonly beeline to get the technologies to unlock UB or UU. (Playing Mongolia? Beeline to Chivalry.) Or push rapidly up through Philosophy and Education. Without the beelines, I find that I have more time to build early buildings and to actually use units during their "proper" era.
I expected to end up fighting more "equal-tech" wars though the ages, and mostly have not found that. In my game as the Ottomans, I did fight such a war against Napoleon --janissaries against musketeers makes for some fun battles. But in every game I've played with this house rule so far, I've ended up with a huge tech lead by the Industrial Era. At that point, the AI were no longer able to keep up, so my troops remained at least an era ahead of theirs.
I expected to end up fighting more "equal-tech" wars though the ages, and mostly have not found that. In my game as the Ottomans, I did fight such a war against Napoleon --janissaries against musketeers makes for some fun battles. But in every game I've played with this house rule so far, I've ended up with a huge tech lead by the Industrial Era. At that point, the AI were no longer able to keep up, so my troops remained at least an era ahead of theirs.
I will often pre-research the next era's techs but hold off completing them to stay in the current era. I will then finish all of the current era's techs, but by then, most of the next techs are all at 1 turn away each (except for the latest tech just unlocked).
Typically this happens if:
A. I want to keep faith costs down by remaining in the current era
B. I want to keep Research Agreement costs down by remaining in the current era
C. I want to delay the Renaissance because I don't want to deal with spying yet
Typically this happens if:
A. I want to keep faith costs down by remaining in the current era
B. I want to keep Research Agreement costs down by remaining in the current era
C. I want to delay the Renaissance because I don't want to deal with spying yet
iamdanno
Warlord
There's a MOD to enforce this teching behavior on all players. I am in the middle of a game with it right now, and I find it refreshing to slow the game down. It is much easier if the AI has to follow this rule, though, so the difficulty level should be kicked up a notch.
LuCypher73
Chieftain
- Joined
- Apr 11, 2010
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- 78
I like how this plays so far, trying it as Songhai/continents/standard size/emperor/Epic speed
I shut off ruins to avoid another potential source of accidental era breach.
I had to wait a lil longer for my mud pyramids but I have to be honest this is a nice start I happen to get so not a big deal, I had elizabeth get aggressive early and so this changed that I had to make due and hold off on CBs which I would have went for otherwise. I also felt free to ignore great library
I threw in 2 screenshots of how it seems to be going up till medieval Ill try and finish it up after lunch and see how the later eras go
Policy choices I dipped into both tradition and liberty but I sometimes do that anyhow, piety I chose because I had Unique temples but otherwise I would probably have gone honor if I had to pick stuff early, honor and tradition with a tall core and puppet this continent maybe
I shut off ruins to avoid another potential source of accidental era breach.
I had to wait a lil longer for my mud pyramids but I have to be honest this is a nice start I happen to get so not a big deal, I had elizabeth get aggressive early and so this changed that I had to make due and hold off on CBs which I would have went for otherwise. I also felt free to ignore great library
I threw in 2 screenshots of how it seems to be going up till medieval Ill try and finish it up after lunch and see how the later eras go
Policy choices I dipped into both tradition and liberty but I sometimes do that anyhow, piety I chose because I had Unique temples but otherwise I would probably have gone honor if I had to pick stuff early, honor and tradition with a tall core and puppet this continent maybe
budweiser
King of the Beers
I've done this before. To me, this means expand more sooner.
LuCypher73
Chieftain
- Joined
- Apr 11, 2010
- Messages
- 78
Its not turning out too different actually from how I would normally play a game with a good starting spot.
I think crappier start situations would up the challenge, or civs with uu/ub on era border perhaps. Opportunities can be lost and starts can be stunted, which for me would likely force early domination/expansion as well.
Anyway it is certainly fun, and allowing for more of a full era experience. Having to wait for things I want frees up production for wealth/cs or unit spam/war actions
I think crappier start situations would up the challenge, or civs with uu/ub on era border perhaps. Opportunities can be lost and starts can be stunted, which for me would likely force early domination/expansion as well.
Anyway it is certainly fun, and allowing for more of a full era experience. Having to wait for things I want frees up production for wealth/cs or unit spam/war actions
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