No synergy between Demon's Altar/Mokka's Cauldron/Soul Forge/etc.

[popejubal]

The various "Sacrifice unit to get something" and "If unit dies here, get something" buildings/wonders/effects don't seem to be linking up. This may be working as designed because it's too strong of a synergy, but I was very disappointed in this lack of synergy in my latest Calabim game.

I built Demon's Altar, Mokka's Cauldron and Soul Forge in my capital and started sacrificing level 17 Vampire Lords.

I was getting around 1500 per turn from commerce/scientists/buildings and just over 1000 per turn from the sacrificed Vampire Lords. I wasn't getting any hammers or unholy demon Vampire Lords from the two wonders, however. I wasn't counting on them to win my game, but I was really looking forward to finally building the Tower of Mastery in this game.

Is there a specific method of death that is required to activate these? Does the game know the difference between a Shade's deciding to Wane and a Great Person's tech bulb and a Sacrifice and a "your unit never returns from exploring the lair" and a death from combat or a death from Pyre Zombie fire after a combat, etc?

I also couldn't build the Shrine of the Champion when I sacrificed Losha Valas on the Demon's Altar (and I did check to make sure that she hadn't come back to life).


The biggest worry about all this would be watching Brigit sacrifice herself at 101 XP every turn, but at least she's an Angel, so there are a lot fewer ways for her to die. Actually, I can't think of any ways to make her die every turn in a specific city.


Anyone have any understanding of the various forms of death in Erebus/RegularBTSylvania that they're willing to share?

 

[GePap]

I know that Mokka's Cauldron does not work if you kill your own unit - a unit has to be killed in combat in the City for it to work and create a flesh golem.

 

[WarKirby]

Mokka's Cauldron requires the units to die in battle, ie, it only ever works if you lose units while defending the city. It also doesn't actually make flesh golems, either.


It turns the unit into an evil version of itself. Generally, infernal/AV units where possible. And regardless, it also gives the Demon promotion to the unit, which changes it's artstyle to what infernals use, for even non UUs
Code is below:

def getUnholyVersion(self, pUnit):
		iUnit = -1
		if pUnit.getUnitCombatType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNITCOMBAT_ADEPT'):
			if gc.getUnitInfo(pUnit.getUnitType()).getTier() == 2:
				iUnit = gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_IMP')
			if gc.getUnitInfo(pUnit.getUnitType()).getTier() == 3:
				iUnit = gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_MAGE')
			if gc.getUnitInfo(pUnit.getUnitType()).getTier() == 4:
				iUnit = gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_LICH')
		if pUnit.getUnitCombatType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNITCOMBAT_ANIMAL') or pUnit.getUnitCombatType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNITCOMBAT_BEAST'):
			if gc.getUnitInfo(pUnit.getUnitType()).getTier() == 1:
				iUnit = gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_SCOUT')
			if gc.getUnitInfo(pUnit.getUnitType()).getTier() == 2:
				iUnit = gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_HELLHOUND')
			if gc.getUnitInfo(pUnit.getUnitType()).getTier() == 3:
				iUnit = gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_ASSASSIN')
			if gc.getUnitInfo(pUnit.getUnitType()).getTier() == 4:
				iUnit = gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_BEAST_OF_AGARES')
		if pUnit.getUnitCombatType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNITCOMBAT_ARCHER'):
			if gc.getUnitInfo(pUnit.getUnitType()).getTier() == 2:
				iUnit = gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_ARCHER')
			if gc.getUnitInfo(pUnit.getUnitType()).getTier() == 3:
				iUnit = gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_LONGBOWMAN')
			if gc.getUnitInfo(pUnit.getUnitType()).getTier() == 4:
				iUnit = gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_CROSSBOWMAN')
		if pUnit.getUnitCombatType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNITCOMBAT_DISCIPLE'):
			if gc.getUnitInfo(pUnit.getUnitType()).getTier() == 2:
				iUnit = gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_DISCIPLE_THE_ASHEN_VEIL')
			if gc.getUnitInfo(pUnit.getUnitType()).getTier() == 3:
				iUnit = gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_PRIEST_OF_THE_VEIL')
			if gc.getUnitInfo(pUnit.getUnitType()).getTier() == 4:
				iUnit = gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_EIDOLON')
		if pUnit.getUnitCombatType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNITCOMBAT_MELEE'):
			if gc.getUnitInfo(pUnit.getUnitType()).getTier() == 1:
				iUnit = gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_SKELETON')
			if gc.getUnitInfo(pUnit.getUnitType()).getTier() == 2:
				iUnit = gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_DISEASED_CORPSE')
			if gc.getUnitInfo(pUnit.getUnitType()).getTier() == 3:
				iUnit = gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_CHAMPION')
			if gc.getUnitInfo(pUnit.getUnitType()).getTier() == 4:
				iUnit = gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_BALOR')
		if pUnit.getUnitCombatType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNITCOMBAT_MOUNTED'):
			if gc.getUnitInfo(pUnit.getUnitType()).getTier() == 2:
				iUnit = gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_HORSEMAN')
			if gc.getUnitInfo(pUnit.getUnitType()).getTier() == 3:
				iUnit = gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_CHARIOT')
			if gc.getUnitInfo(pUnit.getUnitType()).getTier() == 4:
				iUnit = gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_DEATH_KNIGHT')
		if pUnit.getUnitCombatType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNITCOMBAT_RECON'):
			if gc.getUnitInfo(pUnit.getUnitType()).getTier() == 1:
				iUnit = gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_SCOUT')
			if gc.getUnitInfo(pUnit.getUnitType()).getTier() == 2:
				iUnit = gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_HELLHOUND')
			if gc.getUnitInfo(pUnit.getUnitType()).getTier() == 3:
				iUnit = gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_ASSASSIN')
			if gc.getUnitInfo(pUnit.getUnitType()).getTier() == 4:
				iUnit = gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_BEASTMASTER')
		return iUnit

 

[popejubal]

I'm guessing the same is true for the Soul Forge, then as well. Thanks for the explanation. I can see that I won't be building either of those again soon.

 

[Tasunke]

It would be nice to create a new wonder (only mod resource for maps and scenarios, AKA can only be placed into the game via worldbuilder, ect.)

Which plays off of Mokka's cauldron, but makes the effect on any unit killed in its borders (or if easier any civ-owned unit in its borders)

Im thinking of having a Fane of Lessers/esque area that is barbarian civ, yet very demonic.

 

[Tielby]

I'm guessing the same is true for the Soul Forge, then as well. Thanks for the explanation. I can see that I won't be building either of those again soon.

I build Soul Forge for the free death mana. Mokka's Cauldron I only build for the small culture bonus, the small score bonus and to deny my enemies of it... but it's never high on my list.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Mokka's Cauldron requires the units to die in battle, ie, it only ever works if you lose units while defending the city. It also doesn't actually make flesh golems, either.


It turns the unit into an evil version of itself. Generally, infernal/AV units where possible. And regardless, it also gives the Demon promotion to the unit, which changes it's artstyle to what infernals use, for even non UUs

Currently, but it used to work as he said.



Personally, I really think Mokka's Cauldron units should be Undead instead of Demonic. Or maybe Frostling equivalents.


I prefer making the cauldron be a piece of equipment that enters the world with Mokka and can be moved from city to city.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

I prefer making the cauldron be a piece of equipment that enters the world with Mokka and can be moved from city to city.

what He said.

 

[jrandrew]

I agree also, Mokka's cauldron should come with Mokka. There was another thread going about the uselessness of the Samhain ritual now for the Illians. Now, Mokka could show up anywhere (like Orthus) so it's not like having Mokka's cauldron appear with Mokka necessarily pays off much for the Illians in terms of the hammers that they put into Samhain, but it makes it at least a bit more interesting in terms of world-wide lore.

Also, I suppose the Illians could try to plan when to complete Samhain and then have tough units prepared to race out and find Mokka.

An early game movable wonder cauldron that could resurrect units or do any of the various fun things mentioned in this thread could have a big long-term impact.

In the later game the cauldron can be interesting but is never really that big a deal.

 

[Tasunke]

aye ... having Mokka start with the cauldron, as equipment, would be amazing ... especially for MP games.

 

[mimic]

I think Ill add that in my mod.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

A word of caution to those who would borrow that idea. If you make Mokka start the the promotion in XML, then he will create a duplicate cauldron whenever he changes player (as though Domination) after dropping the Cauldron somewhere. This was a bigger deal when I make it so that the Illians had an extra Ice I spell that let the dominate frostlings, and the frostling racial promotion included a chance to turn barbarian. It didn't take long to get a Cauldron for every city in my empire. (Hmm, I wonder why I never noticed a problem like this with Orthus? Maybe that is why he has the Loyalty promotion, and making Mokka Loyal to himself would fix this.)

I ended up editing the def addUnit(self, iUnit): function in Custom functions to take a third argument, a promotion to apply to the unit, and gave Mokka his Cauldron that way. I believe iPromo resisters as -1 if it is called without including this extra parameter, so saying if iPromo !=-1 before adding the promotion meant it didn't effect any other places where the code was called.

 

[WarKirby]

I fail to see how a demon-creating cauldron has anything to do with an annoying little frostling. It doesn't seem logical for him to have it, or for it to have that name.

 

[Tasunke]

Mokka created the frostlings from the Cauldron ... frostlings are another type of demon used by Mulcarn.

 

[Dumanios]

I always thought they were created by Mulcarn as an Ice equivalent of Goblins.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I'm pretty sure they are Mulcarn's equivalent of the Calculpech, small semi-intelligent creatures made only of their maker's element. They would probably be closer to Elementals than to Demons, and their closest relatives would the the much larger and more powerful Frost Giants.


Goblins aren't creations of Bhall, but mortals transformed by her fall because of their closeness to her. They were probably elves who worshiped Bhall as opposed to Bhall's human worshipers who became Orks, but they might have been dwarves instead.

 

[civ_king]

I thought it was humans whose Ice aspect overwhelmed all the others? (barely remembered from AoI)