Noble Marathon Space Attempt

[Gumbolt]

At this point catapults feel too slow. Knights should clear up AI. Unit cost of 13 and supply of 2.

I think leave railroad to mines and key roads. Focus worker turns on items that add value to your network.

Size of cities helps your trade routes too. Note Madrid at size 18 giving another city 4c a turn due to pop. Having a huge island city will also help. The bonus starts to kick in above size 12, 14, 16 and 18. Also helps if the other city is also about size 10,12,14,16 and 18. Merchant trade missions are also helped by size of Ai cities. Size really does matter for trade routes and trade missions.

Is it worth settling the other continent or will this kill you with colonial maintenance?

So communism vs corps? On SGOTM many teams prefer corps if you have a hge empire and have claimed loads of sea resources. Another reason to consider settling across the sea. You would need to check costs.Size 25-26+ cities would totally boss trade routes. Perhaps you should of turned off domination victory.

Not sure how much benefit giving AI astronomy will help here. Very few cities left. I wonder if it was a mistake to have no Ai across the ocean as this would of been useful for trade routes and gold. Plus trading resources.Hmmmm. Cram map full with 18 Ai!!

 

[pigswill]

Hi Gumbolt.

Hadn't given too much thought to trade routes so far. Despite building Glight fairly early there's only two islands around our continent and astronomy is much more recent. Had I gone the chemistry route to scimeth astronomy would be even later.

Because this is practice for HoF I've been following HoF restrictions inc max 10 AI, all victories enabled.

I decided even before rolling the map that I was going for SP hammer economy, had I been going for Corporate Sushi economy I would gone for Big -n-small rather than Terra.

Not too far from corporation which will limit me to 3 trade routes per city, there could be an argument for settling a city in the New World, no distance maintenance, it wouldn't take long to become economically self sufficient and would improve trade route income as it grew. It very likely that I have at least another thousand years before Persia reaches Alpha Centauri so that's plenty of time for it to grow. Just need a galleon, settler, worker, mp to get started.

 

[ZPV]

As ZPV said "Full speed ahead and darn those torpedoes" (or words to that effect). Pinch points/torpedoes much the same thing.

There are a couple of strategy guides for space race but they tend to start at the modern age and don't really explore navigating the industrial age.

Its a tricky tech path to follow and a bit of a maze. On the one hand there's an argument for getting to rocketry to start Apollo asap and a (probably stronger) argument for getting to AL asap to get them factories built asap. Aluminium is a good resource for space construction but one that requires industrialisation which means electricity on top of AL.

Then there's the question of power plants: coal is quicker but full of pollution, hydro is greener, Three Gorges Dam is very green but has yet another tech path incorporating eco-friendly combustion and plastics with an expensive wonder at the end of it.

One thing I am wondering is whether I will ever need oil. Railroads and power work just as well with coal, Ironworks is a significant production boost that doesn't need oil. Planes and tanks and the such need oil but with infantry and artillery and relatively primitive military threats being faced who needs tanks and bombers? Your very first oil well gives you +2 yuck (-2health) in every city which seems a heavy price and one you may not have to pay. To get to rocketry you need to research rifling and either flight or artillery regardless of military considerations. If you go via artillery then you can delay combustion until you need plastics which requires industrialization anyway.

How important are railroads? Yes they whizz workers around and boost mines and quarries but they have to be built and compete for worker turns with farms and workshops which are needed for growth and production.

Correct, you don't need oil, and if you accidentally settled on top of one, trade it away to an AI! All it does is add

If I had to guess, I'd say you're at 100 (+/- 20) turns to launch. So I'd think you'll have 3 golden ages between now and then (including Taj).
The other thing to plan now is which 16 cities are going to build space parts (5x Casing, 5x Thruster, Docking Bay, Cockpit, Life Support, Statis Chamber, 2x Engine).
If you're struggling to find the 15th or 16th city, there are a couple of spots in the new world with loads of forests. Wooden spaceships might seem a bit quaint, but needs must for your medieval astronauts!

3GD probably isn't realistic unless you have two GEs to rush it - it just takes too long to build, and too long to get to Plastics. This is different from Normal speed where I often would build it.
That means, unfortunately, that coal plants are a necessary evil. The city governor will mostly stop allocating citizens to farms after you build them, so have fun fixing that with micro, because you do need your cities to keep growing!

Industrial tech path? You've already got Biology, which is great!
Steam Power (Levees), Assembly Line, Steel (for Ironworks), Electricity and Superconductors are the things that make sense to beeline on the SP path. Then it's Industrialism and Rocketry.
You'll pick up Railroad somewhere along the way, but it's not a huge priority.
EDIT: The last consideration is Democracy for Statue of Liberty. It might be worth it, once you have a production city up and running, so you can actually build the thing!

 

[pigswill]

Superconducters before Indust/Rocketry?

16 cities for parallel construction? Probably doable. Some of the ultimately most productive cities (rivers for levees, high pop) are the university cities, guess its a matter of having lots of workers converging on them one at a time to turn towns into workshops while rushing factories and power plants (?hydro plants). Could even consider farming over resource tiles to enable chain irrigation in some cities.

Obv need to complete Apollo before building any parts, on the other hand there's still a chunk of research and buildings construction to be done before you're ready for spaceship construction. I guess its possible to calculate a breakdown of hammers/turn for each city, you'll need your most productive city to build the engine, on the other hand cities 15-16 will still need a ratio of hammers/turn to complete smallest parts on the same turn as the engine.

I've been doing some preliminary thinking on tech path to AL which goes something like: RP(windmill, watermill)> SP (levee+mechanical serfdom)>econ>nat>constitution>corp. Probably interrupt at some point to fit in steel to start on Ironworks. Ironwork City (Kraftwerk in this game) will be building levee before ironworks and steel should coincide with the completion of its levee.

In terms of Golden Ages I've had one so far. 3 GP (GM GS GA) at the moment . GM (Economix), GS (Physics) GE (Fusion) brings up to 6, need 9 for 3GAs (2,3,4) so need three more. Probably get 1-2 from NE City and one more from Cash City (because it runs a lot of GMs and GPs), most likely to get more GS or GM but could be anything. Taj GA on top of that is pretty much guaranteed. Hmm, if looking at 4 possible GAs that's 96 turns which is probably most of the game pre-launch (post launch who cares) and running more or less continuous GAs will boost further GP production. Probably launch my next GA once I get to Steampower because Feudal Serfdom becomes completely obselete at that point.

Lots of other stuff as well, growing cities, more farms, more workshops, spreading Confu for OR because plenty of buildings to be built: markets for happy, apothecaries for health, factories, power plants, observatories and laboratories for starters. Probably will build an overseas city or two which means fitting in galleon, settler(s), worker(s) in the near future.

(is there an emoji for my head hurts/about to explode?)

Edit: Democracy? At the moment its on my list of techs I don't need to research (along with flight, advanced flight, laser(?) mass media, fascism, miltrad and milsci).
I've been thinking about rushing production because there's no point building Kremlin if you ain't going to rush production. Slavery has a lot of benefits, including getting lots of bonuses, but does reduce population which needs to be regrown.US on the other hand doesn't reduce population but does cost cash would could otherwise be diverted into research. If you're running slavery you ain't running caste or emancipation, if you're running US you ain't running rep. If you're not spiritual its harder to switch civics outside golden ages (but looks like I'll be having a few of those). Maybe 5 turn bursts of slavery/US to knock out buildings quickly with periods of caste/rep while economy and population recover

 

[pigswill]

Note on religion spread. Distance from a Holy City appears a more significant factor than the presence of a Shrine. Learning point: once you've picked a future state religion think about building a pre-OR monastery and send out missionaries to convert cities (established or new built) near opposing Holy Cities to act as hubs for when you're ready to adopt SR, switch to OR and want to mass convert. Losing lots of movement turns at the moment from not having done this..

 

[ZPV]

Superconducters before Indust/Rocketry?

I would. Labs are +25% and you'll build enough of them.

In terms of Golden Ages I've had one so far. 3 GP (GM GS GA) at the moment .

I didn't realise you had some GPs in cold storage. Yes, 4 GAs sounds great!

(is there an emoji for my head hurts/about to explode?)

Edit: Democracy? At the moment its on my list of techs I don't need to research (along with flight, advanced flight, laser(?) mass media, fascism, miltrad and milsci).
I've been thinking about rushing production because there's no point building Kremlin if you ain't going to rush production. Slavery has a lot of benefits, including getting lots of bonuses, but does reduce population which needs to be regrown.US on the other hand doesn't reduce population but does cost cash would could otherwise be diverted into research. If you're running slavery you ain't running caste or emancipation, if you're running US you ain't running rep. If you're not spiritual its harder to switch civics outside golden ages (but looks like I'll be having a few of those). Maybe 5 turn bursts of slavery/US to knock out buildings quickly with periods of caste/rep while economy and population recover

US... the problem is the conversion rate from gold to hammers is really bad, and Kremlin only improves that to pretty bad. It made more sense in Vanilla Civ when build-Wealth was half-power and worked differently.
The issue is you'd only want to use it in a city with low hammers (so it can't build it itself) and low population (so it can't poprush) - but then why do you want that build at all?
On the other hand - Kremlin Slavery is really powerful for your low production-high population cities (so long as you don't whip all your population away).

I tend to like two 5 turn bursts - at Assembly Line and Superconductors - but if you're swimming in hammers then Cristo Redentor can reduce the second one to 1 turn.

Democracy might be a red herring - I could go either way on it. It's an optional tech, but it does do something tangible to increase your research and production.

Note on religion spread. Distance from a Holy City appears a more significant factor than the presence of a Shrine. Learning point: once you've picked a future state religion think about building a pre-OR monastery and send out missionaries to convert cities (established or new built) near opposing Holy Cities to act as hubs for when you're ready to adopt SR, switch to OR and want to mass convert. Losing lots of movement turns at the moment from not having done this..

Long term... Free Religion is the one to be in. Unless you're at a point where you specifically need hammers in buildings or extra great people to hit your next golden age, +10% science is the most relevant bonus.
However, if you're doing a round of whipping, then another trick you can do is switch state religions in the middle of the turn - e.g. whip buildings in Confu cities, then switch to Taoism, and whip buildings in Taoist cities. Likewise, you don't really need wide spreads for Pacifism - only in the specific Great Person cities.

 

[pigswill]

Regarding US v whipping. There's two types of cities I don't want to whip: 7 cottage/university cities which are pretty low in food and production but high in commerce and if you ain't working cottages/hamlets etc they ain't maturing and 2 GP Farms coz I want to save pop for farms and specialists. The other 30+ can just get whipped. (I know, I should just have had 6 cottage cities but its another of my several mistakes).

I slightly disagree about FR because OR bonus applies to normal builds and whips and there's a lot of buildings to be built in a lot of cities. Afaik OR doesn't help Projects such as Apollo or spaceship parts but by that time I'll be getting to the end of research anyway. I'm spreading my chosen SR (confu) so that all cities get the OR bonus all the time (and spreading SR also helps my Cash City).

By coincidence I've just played up to Steam Power and launched my second GA so I'll see if my theory actually works (lots of levees for rushing).

 

[pigswill]

330ad. Another day at the office, another Golden Age.

Spoiler Another dull round :

And I mean dull, no wars, no disasters, a few turns of growth and research. I lied, something interesting happened, Sury built Statue of Zeus (sorry, that really is the most interesting thing that happened)

The Accounts (post GA) 41 cities, 530 pop. 50.5% land 100% research 2160 bpt +81gpt c 3000gp in the bank.

Expenses -311gpt, includes 9% inflation. According to Buffy inflation is calculated as a percentage of total costs (units +cities +civics)

Researched up to AL, just started on physics.

Civics: US, Bureau, Caste, SP, OR. I'm only running a dozen a so specialists for gpp so rep isn't super powerful; I like option of emergency rushing but would rather run caste than slavery. (Got 7 towns for +7 US hammers but won't be getting many more in the near future).

I did at least found Sinbad's Haven in the New World but that's in its infancy.

Launched a golden age after discovering Steam Power.

Confu has now been spread to all 41 cities so no more missionary spam.

Built a few levees, quite a few markets and apothecaries as cities have grown, even a few observatories (25% research and a pre-req for labs).

Started Ironworks in Kraftwerk, should complete in 8 turns.

Madrid (cash city) is generating 141gpt at 100% research, not great but not bad.

Great People: GM GS GA lazing at the Imperial Palace, will be joined by another GS once physics is completed, next GP due in 12 turns (80% GS). Could be a problem here, while I need 7 GP for the next 2 GAs they have to be mixed, no more than 2 of any one type so a third GS is useless for future GAs (but still useful for bulbing (every little helps)).

Spoiler Future Dreams :

I've identified 16 cities with the potential to become productive hammer cities, some better than others, some need to grow more, 6 of them are cottage universities awaiting late game transformation. In the past I've tended to regard 30 base hammers/turn as the minimum for factory/power plant but that's a fairly arbitrary figure. Some other cities will meet that criterion so might also get industrialized. As always have to worry about pollution when doing the whole industrial thing, Apothecary gets +2 health compared to normal grocers, avoiding oil will also help but pollution remains a concern.

Research wise: I'll follow ZPVs (up to now excellent) advice and go physics> elec> refrig> superconducters. After that probably rifles>arty>rocketry to start Apollo followed by industrialisation to locate aluminium (hopefully there will be some available in a large and sprawling empire). After that railroad, combustion, plastics. On the other hand after superconducters there's the option of medicine> genetics (+3 health in all cities) which could become tempting

 

[pigswill]

595ad. More of the same

Spoiler More of the same :

Half way through my third golden age.

Foreign affairs remain uneventful: Sury founded Christianity and the Church of the Nativity. I wonder if he'll try building AP for a Religious Victory. If he does and remains Confucian then no problem, if he converts himself to Christianity I might need to do something about it, not a problem but a war would slow things down a bit.

The acccounts: 41 cities (still), 663 pop, 51% land, 100% research 5769bpt +2gpt (Golden Age)

Expenses 358 gpt, inflation 13%.

Research; Superconductors and Rocketry are done, Industrialisation.done, there is aluminium inside imperial borders.

Civics: Rep, Bureau, Caste, SP, OR

Buildings: Ironworks done, Broadway done, Apollo started, started mining aluminium, got 27 factories, 15 Coal Stations, 30 Observatories and 16 Labs. I had to build the occasional Supermarket for health but overall its manageable.

Great People: 2 GS (one will part bulb fission (10k)), 1 GM, hoping for GA in 10 turns (70-75%) and GE from fusion when I get there.

Spoiler Desiderata :

Some cities have finished building buildings and switched to building research which is nice. After GA research will obviously go down but hopefully will be c 4500 bpt.

Probably should have built some infill cities, they wouldn't be that big (8-12 pop) but wouldn't have taken up much extra land (re domination limit) . There's probably not enough time for them to become profitable so something else to remember for next time.

I guess next research target is Fusion, have to get either Computers or Laser for Fibre Optics, both pretty useless techs. Both require plastics so plastics first via railroad, combustion. . I'll get to build some railroads but workers are starting to run out of things to do while waiting for a few cities to be big enough to turn farms into workshops (or maybe run rep scientists which don't require buildings as such but a city has to grow big enough).

I had a quick burst of slavery but there were very few tiles/specialists poor enough to be whipped away and whipping didn't save that many turns so that was a bit of a surprise.

Another thing I've noticed is that I've had a few cities outgrow the good tiles available so I've been allocating excess citizens to specialists, so even though I'm not running a specialist economy per se I'm still benefiting from representation.

I take ZPVs point about Free Religion and could swop from OR to FR before end of GA because there won't be so many buildings left to finish.

edit: After playing on a few turns I checked the tech tree and noticed that both Computers and Laser need radio as well as plastics. Something I hadn't mentioned before was late game happiness. Mid game happiness is often based on markets which boost happy from silk, ivory, fur and whales. When you research industrialisation, combustion and plastics you obsolete ivory, fur and whales so your happiness suddenly plummets by -2 per obsolete resource. In this game I only had ivory so I've only lost -2 happy. Even so happiness needs rebuilding, hence wonders like Broadway, RocknRoll and Eiffel Tower (or if its only a few cities theatre and Colosseum). I've already built Broadway and I've switched half way through combustion to get radio first to build Eiffel Tower.

 

[pigswill]

Quick update 710ad

Spoiler quick update :

Just finished fusion, 12-13 turns research to complete spaceships techs, currently on 8700bpt ( Taj golden age, 100% research, nearly all cities building research, losing 220gpt but 4000 in the bank so that's fine. Got 4 GPs waiting for next GA so that's ok. Probably 20 turns to build spaceship once research completed (maybe 2-5 more) then 30 turns flight. 5 years/turn so looking at maybe 1000-1050ad (closer to 1050) for victory. Let's hope nothing goes wrong

 

[ZPV]

Nice going! But 20 turns to build the spaceship? Something isn't right there, unless you're short on production cities.

 

[pigswill]

I have 1*300+hpt, 2*200+hpt, 2*150+hpt and 12*100+hpt. Ran out of forests ages ago.

 

[pigswill]

985ad Gosh

Spoiler well well :

Very nearly won a domination victory in 960ad (land 55.95 of 56) but gave away a city just in time.
See Thumbnail.

 

[pigswill]

Time for reflection.

Spoiler A catalogue of errors :

I certainly made enough of them.

i) Not re-rolling until I had a classic HoF Start: (1-2 5F agric food sources, 1-2 heavy commerce tiles( gold or gems). river, 8+ forests).

ii) Not prioritising mining/BW (also related to having a hunting/AH start)

iii) Not prioritising stone/masonry for early failgold.

iv) Trying to use ToA for failgold

v) Not expanding fast enough

vi) Going for lib>communism via astronomy

vii) Not planning religion spread

To be continued following feedback

On the other hand I must have done something right because it was still a relatively early space victory. Hard to say what it was because I pretty much defied/ignored the conventional strategies; I built courthouses, pretty much ignored rep scientists and saved all my Golden Ages until after Lib>Communism .

 

[konata_LS]

Congrats on the victory!

Slow building CHs is usually not worth it. But if combined with whipping and OR, sometimes it works well with Org leaders.

20 turns of building Space ship parts at Marathon is acceptable, I think? since SS parts requires more at Marathon than at Normal Speed. Not sure about it, though, as I rarely play at Marathon.

7000+ per turn before 1000AD is splendid!

 

[Anysense]

I agree with ZPV - 20 turns is outrageous. Finishing the spaceship 2 or 3 turns after final tech may happen when you mess up, but 20

 

[pigswill]

Cheapest part costs 3000/2= 1500 hammers, how do you generate 750 hpt?

 

[Anysense]

Ouch, its actually 3000/3.5=858 hammers and you get 375 overflow from lab. Still need nearly 500, but surely you can save a few forests for a final part, it is a lot more use than making a few hundred gold. Actually, on Terra you can settle a latish city with some 15 forests in BFC and more in 3rd and 4th rings. Then simply chop infra and Life Support.

 

[pigswill]

I researched Composites 745ad (5*3600 Casings) and Ecology 755ad (Final part, 3000h), that's a lot of forests to keep for the end of the game.

 

[konata_LS]

Do you mean chopping can put into Spaceship parts ?! I've never thought of that