Nobles' Club 212: Hannibal of Carthage

[AcaMetis]

The Nobles' Club series started out as a way for Noble-level (and below) players to improve their game. Most of the original participants now play at much higher levels, so this has become a way for advanced players to help others learn to play better. You can play your own game at any level and with any mod, but it would be nice to comment on the games of other players and give them advice.

Our next leader is Hannibal of Carthage, whom we last played in NC CLXXVI, or 176 for those who don't speak Roman numerals . The Carthaginians start with Fishing and Mining.

• Traits: Hannibal is Charismatic and Financial. Charismatic provides +1 to all cities, Monuments and Broadcast Towers, and reduces the XP needed for unit promotions by 25%. Financial adds +1 to all tiles that produce at least 2.
  
• The UB: The Cothon, a Harbor with +1, although it costs 25% more hammers to build (100 compared to 80 on Normal speed). An expensive, but powerful building if you've got access to foreign oversea trade routes. If you've got access to at least 2 seafood resources it'll also provide as much as an Aqueduct at the same hammer cost.
  
• The UU: The Numidian Cavalry, a Horse Archer with +50% versus Melee units and a free Flanking 1 promotion (+10% withdraw chance), although with only 5 compared to a normal Horse Archer's 6, making them relatively less effective against non-melee units. Alternatively, build them to upgrade into Flanking I Cuirassiers or Cavalry (or Gunships I guess), as promotions will stick with a unit through upgrades.

And the start:

Spoiler map details :

Fractal, High sealevel, Temperate climate.

Spoiler edits :

Swapped player stating position and two AI starting position in a silly starting position tango, added a pair of hills to the starting location (the Wine tile and 1N of the Wheat), and moved a Fish from an unworkable position (a 1-tile Mountain "island" elsewhere on the map) to 2S of the player's starting position. Also moved a forest that was on the Plains Hill 1E to the grass hill 3N.

Finally, a cut and paste of our standard doctrine:

There are no hard and fast rules here: fun and learning are our primary goals, but we do suggest that you update your progress at various points in the game, using the Spoiler feature of the boards. You can post as often as you like; here's one suggestion:

• 4000 BC (starting thoughts, no spoiler required for that discussion)
• 1000 BC or so (how you decided to progress up the early tech/build paths, which AIs you have met, where you're thinking of putting cities, etc)
• 500 AD or so (after establishing some cities and a possible plan of action)
• 1200 AD or so (mid-game, Lib race, wars or peace, or whichever happened or didn't, met other continent if applicable, etc)
• 1600 AD (or when you have decided on a course of action and a specific victory condition)
• End of game (Victory!!! or defeat, no shame in losing, especially if you tried a higher level. Learning is what we focus on, not fastest win or biggest empire)

This is just a guideline. If you're trying to improve your game, then posting more frequent updates, in as much detail as you can manage, is the best way to get suggestions from other players. If you come to what seems like a major decision and you want some advice, post an update, regardless of what game-year it is.

We also welcome players to ask for specific game advice, as we have a number or stronger players who lurk and help out with solid tips, and of course, we help each other. Replies to specific questions should also be in spoilers, with a simple "@" in front of the person the answer is directed towards.

Special Thanks go to Bleys and TMIT, who really made this series a great one, r_rolo1, mapmaker extraordinaire, for his maps for most of the series, elitetroops and NobleZarkon for keeping the series going, and all of you for playing.

The WB-saves are attached (zipped; they are bigger than standard saves). To play, simply download and unzip it into your BTS/Saves/WorldBuilder folder. Start the game, and load your favorite MOD (if you use one, if not, check out the BUG MOD), select "Play Scenario", and look for "NC 212 Hannibal Noble" (or Monarch, etc., for higher levels). You can play with your favorite MOD at the Level and Speed of your choice. From Quick-Warlord to Marathon-Deity, all are welcome! We stuck with the name "Nobles Club" because it has a cool ring to it.

Spoiler what's up with specific difficulties :

In each scenario file you can select your level of difficulty, but that doesn't give the AI the right bonus techs by itself. Use the Noble save for all levels at and below Prince. The Monarch save gives all the AI Archery. Emperor adds Hunting; Immortal adds Agriculture; Deity adds The Wheel.

For players on Monarch or above, you should add archery as a tech for the barbarians (if you don't, the AI will capture their cities very early). This cannot be done in the WB save file and must be done in Worldbuilder as follows:

Spoiler how to add techs to the barbarians :

1. Zoom in all the way so you can't see the rest of the map.
2. Use the CTRL-W key (or the menu) to enter the worldbuilder. Avoid looking at the mini-map in the lower right corner.
3. By default you're in "player" mode (look in the box in the upper right; the icon that looks like a person should be selected). You'll get a drop down menu labelled with your leader's name. Barbarians are at the bottom, so cover the rest of the list with your hand if you don't want to see who else is on the map. Select "Barbarians".
4. Select the "Technologies" tab in the box on the left.
5. Find Archery (the arrow head icon; 8th row, 3rd column from the right) and click it.
6. Exit the worldbuilder.
7. Zoom out again after the map fades, and start playing.

If you're playing at higher level than Monarch, consider also giving them Hunting at Emperor, Agriculture at Immortal, and The Wheel at Deity.

Spoiler huts and events :

Note: The standard saves have no huts and have events turned off. If you want tribal villages and random events, choose the saves with "Huts" in their names. If you want huts but no events, select the Huts saves and use Custom Scenario to turn on the option that suppresses events.

I...don't really have a challenge or idea in mind for this map, so just do your usual best to take over the world through whatever means you prefer, I guess . Nevertheless, feel free to post some screenshots and discuss your experience playing the map. Curious to see how well my intent ended up translating to how the map actually plays .

 

[Fippy]

Map already looks nasty after ~15t on deity
I never really noticed how well that works with loading BAT and then the game from mods folder, great stuff.

 

[AcaMetis]

Map already looks nasty after ~15t on deity
I never really noticed how well that works with loading BAT and then the game from mods folder, great stuff.

Exactly as planned . Hopefully the remaining turns will also go according to plan...or at least derail themselves in an interesting fashion .

 

[Tobiyogi]

Exactly as planned . Hopefully the remaining turns will also go according to plan...or at least derail themselves in an interesting fashion .

Spoiler Starting position :

Ah, you really like those little islands, don't you? I hate to see my arch-enemy and I doubt that early war will solve anything. Num Cavalry should have bad odds vs. pro archers and cultural defense...

 

[AcaMetis]

Spoiler :

Honestly I didn't have much of a choice in this case. This is the only map I got which had at least half of what I wanted and the only one that had the most important aspect. Well, that had what I thought would fuel my gimmick of making the map extra hard on Deity. No confirm/deny so far on whether it actually worked .

As for how to deal with Gilgamesh, my intent for this map was basically to show both the strength and weakness of Numidian Cavalry - great odds against melee units (even 6 Vultures), awful odds against archers, particularly PRO archers backed up by CRE borders. It also creates a situation where the free Flanking I promotion can shine, to keep your guys alive in the face of terrible odds. I checked, and IIRC Flanking II over Combat I was something like a +30% chance to survive a fight in return for a -4% chance to actually deal damage, something like that? Worthwhile, basically, even if you don't benefit from Flanking II's immunity to First Strike since HA have that by default. On lower difficulties it should be possible to pump out enough units to take over your island anyway, on higher difficulties you might want/have to go the more peaceful route, which is the other reason why you're facing Gilgamesh - can plot at Pleased, but isn't too unlikely to found a religion (I think) and his favorite civic is HR, which is obtainable/runnable early game. So it should be possible to get him to Friendly without having to spam gift cities.

 

[Tobiyogi]

Spoiler :

I imagine that playing that one on deity must be like hell, because of him starting with 2 settlers. You can find yourself boxed in very early. I haven't played up to IW yet, but the first copper I see is quite close to his territory and besides that, he should have iron, there is a 1/2/1 plains tile south of Uruk. So as usual: most of the benefits are on the AI's side and all we have are weak Horsemen with slightly better survival odds

 

[AcaMetis]

Spoiler :

From what (admittedly limited) testing I did it shouldn't be too too hellish on Deity, the AI is sufficiently to not pounce on the advantages they have access to, but yes it is a little bit rough.

I'll admit that Numidian Cavalry are meh units, really hampered by the fact that the only AI with a resourceless axe to spam is Sitting Bull, of all people, but their increased survival odds looked like they were nothing to sneeze at. IIRC during my testing a Flanking II NC got something like a 50% chance to survive attacking...I think it was a fully fortified Combat II Formation Spear in a walled hill city? And since Hannibal is CHA a Barracks + a retreat is still Level 3, meaning another promotion and a free heal. I mean, I'll freely admit that "they're really good at not dying horribly despite their inherent weakness suggesting they're made out of wet paper" is damning with faint praise, but it looked like NC were a viable option on this map. A painful one, PRO/CRE archers and all, but at least able to get the job done.

 

[Fippy]

I think this pic shows why deity adds a new whole layer of difficulty ~~
Already struggling with even scouting

Spoiler :

edit: have to admit that i lost motivation thou when i saw Giggles trading double gems after 45t or so. Not that i mind difficult maps, but this lacks natural map feeling which is important for me lately.

 

[AcaMetis]

I think this pic shows why deity adds a new whole layer of difficulty ~~
Already struggling with even scouting

Spoiler :

edit: have to admit that i lost motivation thou when i saw Giggles trading double gems after 45t or so. Not that i mind difficult maps, but this lacks natural map feeling which is important for me lately.

Unfortunate, but a learning experience for me I suppose.

Spoiler :

Neither of those things were intended. I noticed that barb defence should be easy since Gilgamesh's borders basically fogbust the north by itself, and to the west you've got the forests for tile defence, but scouting I did not anticipate being made so difficult because of Deity. Honestly I knew from the word go that this map was going to show off the Numidian Cavalry rush, so I didn't think about scouting too much. Other than scouting Gilga's land, which you had easy mostly- to completely barb-free access to, I suppose.

As for the natural map feeling, the reason I chose this map in particular was because Gilga's start wasn't WB, and yours only had the two hills and Fish added. I had maps which were "better", in some respects, but I felt like they'd be less "natural" if I ended up adding/changing things that were more significant than the two hills and Fish. So, less work to get a map which fits my every design and more winging it/letting RNG sort things out, or just shy away from stuff that's a little too much in the AIs favor? Or both?

 

[Fippy]

Aca

Spoiler :

no worries, happens and i just got grumpy with the barb problems and seeing how well Giggles does.
He also had 5 cities by turn ~45 and i think built the Oracle.
So at this point i felt it's clear that only luck can save me from him getting longbows before i can even get 1 NC out
Honestly this map is very very difficult on deity, starts with thinking about how to manage your city early, and then a dangerous AI with what must be terrific land.

 

[AcaMetis]

@Fippy

Spoiler :

Seriously? I am not sure how Gilgamesh even managed that . I don't recall his land being good, let stand that good. It has the one city that's pretty much the richest city on the planet, sure, but other than that I don't recall anything worth writing home about...oh. I, eh, just checked the map again and I see what I missed.
Gilgamesh has 16 forests in his capitol's BFC .

Well...I intended for the map to be extra hard on deity, so...success, I guess ? My intent was for Gilgamesh to fall into the commerce trap, where he might tech like a beast but doesn't have the production to really build up and hammer out units, so when his opportunistic neighbour knocks down his unfortified and undefended door it's curtains for him. I completely forgot that Deity AIs won't necessarily wait for 5000+ years to lumbermill/preserve their forests, so I completely missed the fact that Gilgamesh' capitol has 320 worth of tree surrounding it. At least until he techs Math within like ten seconds because he owns the richest city on the planet.

Going to make a note of that for future reference.

 

[Tobiyogi]

Spoiler :

Playing IMM: my first impulse was to choke him, what I usually do not do anymore. But here the worker was begging for being kidnapped and I supposed that there must be horses somewhere in my close surroundings. So with some chariots, I could at least keep him at 2 cities so far while I permanently destroy all his gem/iron mines and roads. He has already moved back & forth his 3. settler a hundred times. And he has so many archers that I will need construction. Difficult situation. Staying in the war all the time ignited him to produce tons of units, and he will possibly have a terrible tech pace, on the other hand it keeps him from settling the copper. I think that this strategy has its downside as it destroys the two of us, where no-one really progresses and civs on other continents will probably be ahead in development.

 

[sampsa]

Spoiler :

I think choking is usually just bad (on immortal), but it can be good with infinite workers steals by a woodie-guy. However, you want your first target to expand to good cities, since they will be your cities soon. Stealing one or two workers is often good though, but then just try to make peace asap, tech to construction and take everything you want.

 

[Tobiyogi]

Spoiler on choking :

I agree. It simply turned out personal as I have my little feud with Giggles and making him furious felt satisfying, but of course, it costs me useless resources.

 

[Biggs_Pliff]

I've been kind of stuck in a rut civ-wise recently so I've decided to try out these noble's club games again and get advice. I am, or at least was, an ok monarch player, I'm a little rusty. I can win on monarch but most of the time that is due to the build 2 cities and cover the map with endless streams of military units tactic that I got from Grimmith (works a treat, on Pangaea anyway), if the map isn't suited to that I might be able to win but it'll be a struggle so I was thinking if I have the patience I'd play this like a shadow game, at the very least I can take on board advice as to how I could have done better if I do end up plowing on...

Tl;dr: Going to have a crack at this, constructive criticism very much appreciated. Monarch Difficulty, no huts/events (i hope).

Spoiler :

I typed out an insanely detailed account of my notions about what to do/ what I had done which is all now gone when I accidentally pressed something (seems to be happening to me a lot today) I've attached a picture (map is sideways because once again I accidentally pressed something).Settled PH 1E Off the bat I went for workboat, I decided it would be better to get that done while doing worker techs as that way I could let the city grow and give the worker plenty to do, used the freshwater lake for one turn then switched to the wheat so the workboat would finish the same turn the city grew. Finished AG and started BW. Finished workboat, started worker. I have some prospective city sites marked on the image, (not a regular poster here so I struggled and then gave up trying to put the image in a spoiler, there's very little spoilery on it anyway since it's from turn 12 I'm thinking settle a lot of coastal cities and go GLH from the off because Hannibal is financial and starts with fishing so it seems like the obvious choice. I think I'll leave it for now and try wait for some feedback

 

[Biggs_Pliff]

Played another few turns.

Spoiler :

Worker out. Farmed wheat, moved over to mine wine. Teched BW started AH. Built a warrior and started another to do some fog busting. On T25. Current notion is to tech hunting and settle between the sheep and deer since that way starts me suits the resources and starts me teching towards NC which I can then try spamming and maybe whipping settlers in between to set up more cities to spam them. Old habits die hard.

Turn 30: City at pop 4. Started Settler, will switch to slavery when it's time to 2 pop whip it. AH and mine in 2 turns

 

[AcaMetis]

Fractal maps, particularly those with High Sealevel, aren't necessarily one large connected continent. They can be, but chances are that you won't be able to make contact with all of the AIs until Optics, and won't be able to ship military units over the oceans until Astronomy. Don't expect to be able to conquer the world with Chariots/HA, needless to say.

 

[Deathcrush]

Well, from what i saw in Lain 's videos /and I've watched all of them including the current Brennus' one/ most of the times fractal is not one continent -> so its not like pangea.
I am not sure about the sea level he plays on but 98% of the maps are either 2 or 3/4 continents. Like in current game for example, only he and Ragnar are on the same landmass.

 

[Biggs_Pliff]

Fractal maps, particularly those with High Sealevel, aren't necessarily one large connected continent. They can be, but chances are that you won't be able to make contact with all of the AIs until Optics, and won't be able to ship military units over the oceans until Astronomy. Don't expect to be able to conquer the world with Chariots/HA, needless to say.

Map types/strategy is something I really need to get used to, I've started recently playing fractals but for years I only ever played pangaea so I could entirely ignore seafaring techs and just kill everything. Should I still go ahead with taking on Gilgamesh? I read the comments which suggest that NC is not a great unit to use against him because they're 5 strength and he is protective which is a really annoying trait

 

[Deathcrush]

I've been kind of stuck in a rut civ-wise recently so I've military units tactic that I got from Grimmith (works a treat, on Pangaea anyway)

He is very nice and funny guy i was laughing a lot at his playthroughs , i miss his vids and comments . Unfortunatelly he moved on to other games, maybe he just got civ burnout, but he doesn't play Civ anymore.