OCCC (One City Challenge Club) MarkII - Gandhi

[Kid R]

@asterix

That's a pretty impressive improvement on the other times. It would be interesting to know what the optimum method is here - what was your method?

I was thinking I might try it again running absolute max science specialists, and pass up on artist and merchant wonders, and probably later priest ones too, rather than building absolutely everything and getting less GPs and too many poor ones as well. Also try to get better value from tech trading by gifting a lot of tech away. I think one of my problems was I tried to tech everything myself.

 

[-Asterix-]

@ Kid R:

Spoiler :

I think cas or Sleepless could do a lot better than this if they tried again considering their first games. I just tried to go fast to research-boosting techs like Writing, CS, Edu and Bio but apparently I should have done that even faster. And I forgot again to give lots of techs away so I ended up researching basically everything by myself...

But finishing before 1900ad is good enough improvement for me so I won't be trying a third time. I still haven't finished the latest BOTM and I hope there will be new OCCC in next few days too. I can post more information about my techs and wonders later, it shouldn't be too hard to "replicate" and improve that strategy...

 

[-Asterix-]

Here's some data from my second try (1894AD space):

Spoiler :

Techs:

From the beginning:

3800BC Fishing
3400BC Poly
3120BC Agri
2760BC AH
2320BC Writing (1st GSc 1720BC)
2080BC Priesthood
1360BC CoL
1000BC Math
950BC CS (from Oracle)
950BC Masonry
900BC TW
850BC Sailing
650BC Aesthetics
525BC Literature
275BC Paper
125BC Currency
50BC Alpha & lots of minor techs via trading
75AD Edu
125AD Music
300AD Philo

Then some sort of beelining to:

780AD Astro
1120AD SciMeth
1160AD Bio (with Liberalism)

And at the end for example:

1480AD Superconductors
1605AD Industrialism
1715AD Rocketry
1846AD Fusion

Wonders:

1400BC ToA
975BC Oracle
500BC Pyramids
250BC Great Library
50BC NE
100AD HG
250AD Oxford
400AD UoS
780AD MoM
1200AD Nat. Park
1340AD Hermitage
1390AD Taj
1550AD Ironworks
1740AD Apollo

Great people:

Settled:

4 GE
1 GM
11 GSc
1 GA
3 GP

Bulbed:

1 GSc to Edu
1 GSc to Computers

GAs:

GSc, GSc + GM, GP + GA + GE


Besides things mentioned in previous posts, I guess I should have left ToA at the beginning to be faster to the stuff that really matters (Oxford, Nat. Park, etc.). I seem to have been way behind both cas & Sleepless e.g. at Oxford, but I guess both of them have been goofing around more at the end to make things even.

 

[jwez11007]

Space in 1975

Spoiler :

Been a long time since I played an OCCC so this was a really sloppy game. Still playing at Noble difficulty allowed for a very forgiving game. Fairly standard opening prioritizing worker techs and mysticism/masonry. Stonehenge allowed for a faster border pop to get started on stone boosted Mids.

Wonder-whored alot since diplo was incredibly easy due to a Jewish lovefest on our continent. Had to run some fake wars against Shaka to seal the diplomatic deal, but never even saw an enemy unit. In retrospect I definitely overdid the wonder whoring and was too worried about optimizing final hammers rather then optimizing for the faster tech pace. To that end I settled on lib->steel for ironworks and ignored the Nat. Park. Aside from prioritizing education early the rest of the tech decisions focused on getting wonders and hammer multipliers.

Got a few unlucky GPs at the end including 3 spies from the pentagon, talk about bad luck. I used 2 of them and 1 other GP to run some extended golden ages in the final run. Also founded AlCo before I discovered the Aluminum in the final border tier. The extreme hammer focus allowed for all the thrusters to be built while waiting for other techs.

Pics

Spoiler :

1110 AD


1804


1974-1turn before victory


Final builds

 

[Sleepless]

@ Kid R

I know in my attempt I had 19 settled GSs + 1 for Academy and + 1 for Edu. Early wonders SH for faster resource/border pops. Mids/HG and GLib. Def could have gone to space a lot quicker. Started building space parts with out a Lab. Apollo (finished in 1640) without aluminium are a couple of big mistakes I made. Sure if I looked hard enough I could find a few more.

Well I looked again and realised I hadn't even built a power plant. Thats what you get when you rush through games

 

[Kid R]

Well I played it again up till rocketry and did better but still not that good. On the plus side I was definitely impressed by the number of free specialists you can get with the NP if you leave all the forests rather than chopping them into early wonders of dubious benefit, which is what I normally do (read too many obsolete walkthroughs ). 20 science specialists ticking away under pacifism in a size 14 city is a thing to behold! And a purer scientist GPP gene pool was good too. On the other hand fewer wonders overall meant I didn't get my borders out to the aluminium, and looking at asterix's dates I can see my beelines to virtually everything (e.g. Civil Service, Education, Biology) were nowhere near bee-like enough. 3 or 4 turns later for the academy and bureacracy all adds up over the course of the game I guess. Definitely a learning experience to concentrate so purely on science like this.

Incidentally I must have given all the AIs at least 30 or 40 techs each in that second game and got 2 or 3 techs back off them in return which was ... most exasperating ... as Daffy Duck would say. Even left liberalism for ages hoping someone would take something useful. No, Mansa eventually makes it there and takes ..... Divine Right

 

[Jastrow]

One run through, with no optimization, space in 1894 (Launch in 1874).

While I did not do optimum micro, I also did not catch any major mistakes on the way, so I dont think I would beat this score by very much on a second run. Alphabet came in unusually late from the AI, which did cost me a few turns of early research. That, plus a turn here and there that I could shave... Maybe I could acheive 1880 on a second or third run, but I dont see much ealier than that.

Spoiler :

I started worker first, and went Agg and AH to hook up the corn-beef. Then fishing, and straight to library and started working two scientist for the academy. Went the CS-sling route, and converted to Beuraucracy in 1040. Pyramides and representation followed in 850 BC.

After that I did something slightly unusual, and actually went education (Including one bulb on edu itself.) before great library, so got oxford in the BC's, but the library only came in 125 AD.

From there, it was straight to NP, which was built in 1100 AD, with all 14 preserves already waiting for it.

I lib'ed superconductors in 1440 (Could have waited a lot longer and gotten something even bigger, but liked getting the labs on line sooner.)

I had not realized there was even another continent until 1620, when Hammy showed up... Overall, diplo was fairly easy. Mansa addopted my COnfu. religion, and I gave in to all tech demans from everyone except Qin, who became a black sheep, and spent much of the game as Mansa's vessal. I never saw any non-barb combat, and even there, animals, warriors, and the odd galley ramming into my privateer guarded fish where all no source for concern.

Last tech I was able to trave for was something like Feudalism. Everything else was self-teched, with the acception of communism, which I trated for at the very end, to finish space ship production in state property.

One ironic tidbit... Silver did pop in the mind in my capital... TWO turns before I launched my ship... Yeah, that was a big help (Actually, it technically hurt, since it converted hammerns to commerce, which I no longer had ANY use for. It did not make a difference in the launch date however.)

 

[Clam Spammer]

Won Space in 1927, without trying too hard or thinking things through greatly.

(edit: forgot I'm supposed to put the write-up in spoilers)

Spoiler :

Probably the biggest thing that slowed me down was general indecision and forgetfulness - I diverted to a few techs that I didn't need (Drama and Music for instance), and I tend to forget for a few turns when new buildings/improvements become available. What probably got me a relatively quick finish despite this is experience gained from playing several OCCs before this. It's quite formulaic really; the preferred tech path doesn't change all that much from game to game. Also, diplomacy is a great skill to have - I used Pacifism extensively, despite having to run a heathen religion, with minimal risk of getting dragged into war.

Unlike many players here, I built few wonders and opted to run scientists instead of hammer tiles. In fact I only built four world wonders: Great Wall, Pyramids, Great Lighthouse and Hanging Gardens. I kept all my forests for NP, which meant I didn't have great production. I even shunned GL in favour of a Lib -> Biology beeline. I didn't even get close to Legendary culture for the Aluminum. If I played this through again, I'd definitely gift someone up to Industrialism before starting the spaceship.

Re. game settings: IMHO, vassals states and diplo victory are garbage mechanics (I know, I'm channeling TMIT here ) and should be turned off for all games, OCC or otherwise. I played along anyway since this is only Noble level, but still they gave me some nervous moments - Shaka capped Mansa and looked hungry for more conquest, AP religion spread to everyone on the continent except me (thankfully I never got AP dogpiled - I don't know the mechanics, but I did continually beg peace treaties around vote time - does that block the war resolution? If so, I'll claim credit for that...) For future games, I'd greatly prefer a WorldBuilder save, so we can use custom settings without spoiling the map. Sorry if this sounds bitter, it's just a personal preference is all.

 

[Vaidd]

Space loss in 2011:

I'd never played a OCC before, so I thought I'd give this a try. Without a lot of micro, it went real quick, although the loss still stinks.

I made two mistakes in the late game that cost me. First, I voted "no" instead of "never!" on the UN Free Speech resolution, which forced me out of Bureaucracy, so that cost me some production on my last few parts (casings and docking bay). I also had two turns waiting for composites to complete after all the other parts were built, so I built research. The mistake was that I forgot to switch to casings right away once composites was in. If I had remembered in time, I would have had one more casing when I was forced to launch.

(A possible third mistake was researching composites last. I guess there would have been fewer or no turns waiting for techs if I had those parts to build.)

My non-spoiled neighbor to the east launched without one engine, so I launched immediately minus two casings. I knew if my ship didn't blow up, it would get there first. Unfortunately for me....

Lesson learned: mistakes are magnified in a OCC, so pay attention.

 

[Fluroscent]

Space 1872
Always fun to play this variant, but I must confess it is not an unfamiliar venture

Spoiler :

If you want to know more about fast OCC space races, try looking at a game from challenge series I in the hall of fame. There was an OCC emperor space race (game 6 IIRC), and the strategy is roughly the same.
Key is national park/environmentalism beeline (I took medicine from lib), with almost all BFC forests saved, and building research during large parts of the game, as opposed to building too many wonders and non-needed improvements.
Also, Oxford later than 200AD on this map is too late.

Trading for aluminium is better than getting legendary, since Sistine etc. does not help the space race at all.
I gifted up KK to industrialism when I could, and made sure Shaka was fighting elsewhere to avoid pillage.

 

[Clam Spammer]

2nd try, won this time at 1876AD, 39 turns sooner (I think?) than my first run.

Spoiler :

The biggest difference was my early tech path - this time I went straight to Writing (through Ag-AH) and built the library to run scientists ASAP. Before, I teched Masonry before Writing (when the stone was still outside my culture! ) and consequently had no GPs until much later. I built the Oracle this time (taking Philosophy at 850BC), and left the Great Lighthouse (the benefit isn't bad, but you either lose a lot of scientist turns getting the hammers, or get it extremely slowly and delay other builds). Again, I shunned the Great Library, since it wouldn't have lasted long anyway. Other key dates were Education at 25AD (but see below), Lib -> Biology 840AD. I also had a big stroke of luck that I didn't last time - the first three religions went to the other continent, leaving me with a monopoly on religion and a much easier diplo game.

Still a few negatives; I gifted up the AIs too late and missed 4 turns of Aluminum boost, and I'm a bit clueless with regards to optimising the endgame - which order to research SS techs, when to chop forests (BFC ones especially), which specialists to use while building the last few parts, what to do with the last few GPs...

Oxford later than 200AD on this map is too late.

Did you build Oxford before NE, or after? I built NE first so I'd have more GPs settled earlier. Is it better to build Oxford first? Is it feasible to have both built by 200AD? (Maybe it is, I was only 7 turns after this cutoff)

 

[vanatteveldt]

Again, I shunned the Great Library, since it wouldn't have lasted long anyway

Interesting remark! I've always built this one without even thinking about it.

Let's do the math: GLib costs 350 hammers (/2 for marble), gives 2 scientists until scimeth, and 2 good GPP always (this doesn't obsolete, right?)

Assuming you have no marble and are not industrious, how many turns are needed to make this thing pay for itself?

You get 12 raw beakers + 8 raw GS GPP per turn. Let's assume the alternative is building research for 1 beaker per hammer (right?)

Let's also assume that before education, hammer modifiers is 25% (forge) and science modifier is 75% (lib+academy). After education, it goes up to 200% (lib+uni+academy+ou). Since building research goes through the forge and scientist beakers go through the university, the math changes a lot after building ou.

Building research is always worth 1.25 beakers per hammer, so investment in glib = 350x1.25 = 437 beakers
GLib free scientists are worth 12*1.75 = 21 beakers pre ou, 36 beakers post ou


Worst case calculation: GPP are worthless and we have no ou. It will take 437 / 21 = 21 turns to break even
If we do have ou, it will only take 12 turns to break even.
If we value GPP at 1 beaker each, these numbers drop to 437 / (21+8) = 15 turns and 10 turns, respectively.

Assuming that you research literature when you have pacifism and CS, you will need to research:

Paper
Education
Printing Press
Gunpowder
Chemistry (plus Machinery and Engineering?)
SciMeth

Of course, the alternative is probably build the NatEpic, so I think the real question is: can you build NatEpic plus TGL before education comes in, and will it take at least around 15 turns from education to scientific method?

My guess: yes, making TGL worth the investment

 

[cas]

Interesting remark! I've always built this one without even thinking about it.
...
My guess: yes, making TGL worth the investment

I think you're ignoring the fact that you can get to education/Oxford faster by ignoring GLib/NEpic and Aesth/Lit research time...especially when we have stone for Oxford. How many beakers do you gain by getting to Oxford 15 turns sooner ?

And you can get to Bio/Medicine faster by ignoring it. How many beakers/GPP do you gain by getting to National Parks / Lib -> medicine (Envrionmentalism) faster with all those free specialists ?

NEpic doesn't add as much punch with a Philo leader running Philosophy, so it is not as important on this map.

cas

 

[Fluroscent]

Did you build Oxford before NE, or after? I built NE first so I'd have more GPs settled earlier. Is it better to build Oxford first? Is it feasible to have both built by 200AD? (Maybe it is, I was only 7 turns after this cutoff)

I think no spoliers are ok by now.
Oxford first, in fact, Education before teching Lit.
Two reasons:
-Stone for Oxford, but no marble for NEpic (and GLib, I skipped it)
-I want to work hammer tiles and run Slavery/OR while building Oxford anyway, so having NEpic in this phase is not that beneficial.

After Oxford and NEpic, we can switch to caste/pacifism and run super GPP scientists until the next critical build which is national park.
Finding time to build GLib here is impractical. Unless staying in OR and working hills it will not be profitable, but then you lose out on running a lot of GPP.

 

[Abegweit]

Getting the NE and the Globe is essential to running a good OCC and it takes a lot fewer beakers than education. The fact that the GL is also on the same route makes it even more attractive. Of course you could wait and trade for it but this game is being played on Noble.

 

[-Asterix-]

In this particular game Globe is not needed because NP (or forest preserves actually) gives more than enough happiness. Also, when beelining to NP the Great Library will go obsolete quite fast anyway.

 

[Abegweit]

The value of the GL has been repeatedly demonstrated on this forum, most recently by vanattevelt on this thread. In an OCC, though, it's not just about the GL. It's also the NE available with the same tech and the Globe which is one tech further down the same line. This is why this tech line is so valuable, especially in a low level game.

You claim to believe that NPs can somehow replace the Globe. However, you yourself teched Lit in 525BC and Biology in 1160AD. Your own experience belies the claim. If you really wanted to beeline Biology you should have eschewed Aesthetics.

 

[-Asterix-]

You claim to believe that NPs can somehow replace the Globe. However, you yourself teched Lit in 525BC and Biology in 1160AD. Your own experience belies the claim. If you really wanted to beeline Biology you should have eschewed Aesthetics.

Yes, NPs really replace the Globe IMO. In space game you don't really need infinite happiness, 10+ happiness from forest preserves is enough. And with NP you also get tons of free scientists from them. Moreover, the Globe requires Drama which is an unnecessary tech otherwise.

In that game of mine I really went for Lit (GL & NE) before Edu & Oxford because, as usual, I thought that GL is always great. I don't really like to do all kinds of spreadsheets and calculations about how good different things are so I just go with my gut. Now, after some observations by Fluroscent (who actually was about 10 turns faster than me), I think I should have gone the other way around. When you beeline to Bio & SciMeth right after Edu & Lit (what you usually don't do in normal games), GL becomes obsolete sooner than normally.

But anyway, it's very hard to do thorough calculations about this because there are still lots of variables around even though it's OCC. Maybe I'll just play this through two more times, once with GL and once without, and try to do rest of the things similarly...

 

[Fluroscent]

There are two points that make the calculation of vanatteveldt not realistic:

-If you hammer out GLib without working PHF tiles+OR, then it will take so long to complete that you will be close to obsoleting it before it completes. And if you do work them and run OR, then you cannot compare with research building equally. You are then comparing with running rep scientists under pacifism. That makes GLib take a hell of a lot longer to catch up. Basically, for most of the pop in question, you now get 3-4 hammers becoming ~4.5 research versus 6 base research becoming somewhere between +75% and 220% larger and 3 GPP.

-The research gained while not building GLib is worth more than the research gained by GLib later, mostly because you will get Oxford sooner, which is obviously vastly superior in output to GLib.

Globe: Build a few temples instead of an expensive (tech+hammers) globe, and you will have a high enough cap to use all your food properly.

IF you play a completely different strategy, not saving forests and instead farming all the grass, then you will be health capped before NPark anyway. But then you will of course be able to build GLib with the extra chops.
Unfortunately, you will never get the ~1100bpt base you need to complete the space age in a reasonable timeframe that way.

 

[vanatteveldt]

interesting, I had not considered getting edu before lit, let alone bio before lit. I guess it does make sense, especially since we are phi and can run pac.

I am inclined to try again with a more aggressive beeline, seeing if that would help.

IF you ignore GT, what do you build as fifth wonder? (assuming (in order) OU, NP, NE, IW). HE seems useless in peaceful game, so maoi for the extra two/three produciton? None?