[BTS] On chopping

[6K Man]

Quick survey:

1. Do you always* chop Grassland Forest? If not, why not?
2. Do you always* chop Forested Hills? If not, why not?
3. Do you always* chop Plains Forest? If not, why not?
4. Do you still chop Plains forest when lumbermills become available?
5. Do you chop (non hill) Tundra?
6. Do you keep chopping right into the Modern era, if your game goes that far?

* other than exceptions like quests, National Park, retaining forests for defensive bonuses, etc

 

[RavenousX]

So if you watch the deity players on youtube they are chopping everything pretty much immediately because early hammers are more valuable than late hammers. The only time I've seen them hold off is for a specific wonder or to wait for math. Generally they are forest free by 500AD.

For your specific questions:
1. Yes because farms are better for building population to whip and in your capitol (or other economic city) it's better to have cottages. 2 food, 1 hammer isn't ideal.
2. Yes because you get the hammers from chopping and can build mines which improves the tile from 1/2 or 0/3 to 1/3 or 0/4 depending on grassland vs plains.
3. 90% of the time yes for the same reasons as the grassland forest. I'll sometimes keep 1 or 2 in a city without much production until civil service if I'm going to need the production for whatever reason and there's no fresh water.
4. This depends more on the city and what civics your running. If you're running caste system and state property a workshop is better. If you're just using the city to whip units then a farm is better.
5. Yes. You should never be working forest tundra unless you're past railroad and even then it's iffy better to make use of those 30 hammers early. Rare cases where I've built the national epic in a coastal city with a lot of food and forested tundra and the game looks like it's going to be very long I think I've held on to them to build the national park.
6. If I have railroad, lumber mills and factories and I'm out of slavery for some reason, I'll sometimes go lumber mills for some extra health and production but that's pretty rare.

 

[AcaMetis]

Yes to all except 5, though I won't argue that's optimal play. Once I get Math a forest either has Deer or Fur on it, flat Tundra below it or it's going to die. National Park is something I never build, because in my lands forests become a myth long before I get that kind of tech.

 

[lymond]

I chop it all.

 

[Windsor]

Yes to all.

Seriously, you can't go very wrong if you just chop everything. Not chopping enough however will often be a significant mistake. So if you're ever in doubt, chop!

 

[6K Man]

Thanks for commenting, everyone. And I agree that logically, chopping everything is the optimal play. Despite knowing this, I don’t always do it.

The way my questions were phrased probably telegraphed what my own practices are:

1. Chop if I am urgently building something. In the BCs, pretty much everything I build is urgent. After that, it’s situational… although a more serious player would say that time is of the essence in every build.
2. Chop if I can build a better improvement with the forest gone (so Hills and Grassland are almost always chopped)

Plains Forest and flat Tundra get chopped under criteria #1. If it’s 800 AD and I’ve just settled my 20th city, I tend to leave those around the new city. I’m not exactly sure why. My hazy reasoning goes like this: Chopping flat tundra leaves a worthless tile underneath it, and a Lumbermilled/Railroaded Plains Forest is better than a non-State Property Plains Workshop. That presupposes that the city (a) doesn’t need the hammers urgently after it’s settled and (b) will grow big enough (and have enough food) to work the hypothetical Tundra or Plains Lumbermill.

Not chopping is a bad habit, hard to break.

 

[Bibor]

I used to not chop plains forests, and turn them into lumbermills w/railroad, but I learned this is a really bad idea.
The only times I delay chops nowadays is:
a) prechopping for something
b) lack of worker turns
c) waiting for math
d) waiting for org. religion + religion in city
e) waiting for forges
f) non-riverside flat tundra if I plan a city down there & that city will need production (super-rare).

I even prechop future city tiles where possible, especially if within culture borders.

 

[ArchGhost]

Quick survey:

1. Do you always* chop Grassland Forest? If not, why not?
2. Do you always* chop Forested Hills? If not, why not?
3. Do you always* chop Plains Forest? If not, why not?
4. Do you still chop Plains forest when lumbermills become available?
5. Do you chop (non hill) Tundra?
6. Do you keep chopping right into the Modern era, if your game goes that far?

* other than exceptions like quests, National Park, retaining forests for defensive bonuses, etc

1. Yes
2. Yes, though sometimes delay if they are PFHills since 3 hammers is good very early on. Still doesn't save them for long, just moves them back in priority until I want to improve the hill.
3. Yes, first priority. I look for the PF that are a.) most accessible to my workers b.) surrounded by the most other forests (for regrowth chance) to chop first. At the very worst, grass forests can still be grown on...
4. Yes, assuming they aren't gone already
5. This one is tricky. Mostly yes. Tundra tiles can only be improved with normal improvements (farm/cottage/mine/windmill) if they have fresh water or are hills. If neither of those things are true, you have the rare situation for a lumbermill or preserve if forested.
6. Generally I never hesitate to chop all game, and can't chop fast enough!

Chop it all.

Spoiler :

It just free hammers not doing anything and you don't have to work it to get them. Even looking at it like 5 or 7.5 hammers per worker turn spent to chop it (which can be as low as 5 hpt in the city overall for a hilled forest if you only send one worker to do it), that's still more hammers than that forest would give you than if you're not working it in the first place, and the whip is a better use of that pop than waiting 15-30t of working that forest to get the same (raw not converted) hammer output. With grass forest and the whip conversion, it seems like they would be a little better than PF and they are....but only as good as non-riverside pFarm.

It's actually more a balancing act between worker turns on better improvements vs. chopping for me until all forests in BFCs are gone, or I definitely am too busy improving other things (such as chaining irrigation) to spare them for chops. I've never used forests defensively in my own terrain and am firmly in the school that leaving them next your cities when trouble comes knocking is an invitation for them to be abused against you. It happens sometimes with jungles though, as you can't always be bothered to chop them away if you don't want to immediately improve the green tile beneath it.

Exceptions to that are when those chop hammers have a very specific job to do -- such as hold them for use on units in an early attack, or hold them to chop into a big wonder all at once. The latter usually only comes up late in the game anyway (I would never hold chops until Math for something "worth it" to try for that early, like GLH or Mids...just chop now, you might not make it otherwise!) on Taj/Kremlin or sometimes Statue of Liberty. I will settle tundra cities surrounded by many forests specifically for this task sometimes as the city is just a drain otherwise and since that forest production can't be transferred elsewhere to another city, I might as well dump it into the wonder anyway for fail-gold in the worst case.

Lumbermills are also kinda...not worth it, unless it's the only improvement you can put on that tile (non-fresh water tundra flats can't be improved AT ALL except for a mill/preserve if they happen to have a forest). They are a little better if you are FIN and the lumbermill is riverside since that will net more hammers than a watermill and more commerce than a workshop. Even then questionable unless you have the food to work it, which can be scarce in such cities unless they get fishing resources or multiple deer. SP Workshops are always better if you aren't at R/R yet (and can be emplaced earlier, both in terms of tech standing and worker turns) since with Caste/Guilds/Chemistry they yield the same as a R/R lumbermill anyway, wind/watermills can be better depending on the food situation or being FIN, etc. Mines are just as good as Lumbermills on hills, so better to chop the forest for the free 30 hammers in my book if the tile could be worked either way and for one less worker turn overall too!

I see that Lumbermills are clearly meant to be an alternative to workshops (and possibly watermills) if you don't have their upgrades/aren't in SP, but they come so dang late and having a strong hammer tile you won't work (such as if you are in Slavery whipping instead of growing in Caste/Emancipation) is no benefit. If they worked like Preserves with a passive boon, it'd be a different story. It's also really hard to beat SP as a late game civic without corps, further increasing the relative incentive for workshops.

I've never seriously used the National Park or Preserves in my time with the game. The only time I would save forests (it would NEVER be jungles) that late into the game is to chop into a wonder like Kremlin all at once. They are too valuable for getting the city to "catch up" in infrastructure if I actually want to use said city as well.

e) waiting for forges

I've found in my play this is actually not really a good idea. You have to run so many hammers through the forge to pay off its cost that in terms of turns, you're better off just getting the 25% lesser yield on your chop--especially for big projects. An alternative is just whipping the forge though, if you have strong enough food to regrow 3-4 pop quickly.

 

[Bibor]

An alternative is just whipping the forge though, if you have strong enough food to regrow 3-4 pop quickly.

Yeah whipping is what I meant. The usual Rammesses-Oracle-MC combo and the like.

 

[elmurcis]

I keep 1 Plain Forest in BFC if city has 1 Deer with Forest (+1 health if tile otherwise would be weak anyway is nice bonus + that 1F2H can come really handy when doing some build-ups for whips for example). Anything outside that - when need, if need, if enough worker turns etc. Failgold is thing that would also eat any forests outside cities BFC if not for some direct need. Ofcourse, some more roleplay games (build Pyramids and run US until the end of game not touching Slavery anymore etc.) would keep more forests. But even there chess-table chopping for regrowth would be usual thing.

 

[krikav]

It depends alot, but mostly everything just gets chopped.
Non-riverside flatland plains usually gets chopped last since that tile is just plain awful, and a 1F2H tile is better. (Just slightly worse than PH-mines).
In especially health deprived cities they might be saved.

 

[Bibor]

Well to be fair, lumbermills are a good alternative for workshops if going corps space, but communism is so good it hurts, especially watermills

 

[MAvL]

Yes to all except non fresh water tundra (5), if that's all the tile a city can work. But tundra is the last place I would settle, save for National Park, which is a beast of its own. So if I ever find mself in a position to build a tundra town, I would still most liekely chop, for emergency reasons.

I sometimes do keep one or two forest next to my town for health and lumbermill them (or preserve if happiness is an issue), preferably forest next to river. I know a lot of people will talk about the defensive bonus it gives to a sieging opponent, but I've never been on the receiving end of this trope.

I even prechop future city tiles where possible, especially if within culture borders.

That's a nice one, I never though about it.

chess-table chopping for regrowth

Intuitively, it sounds the best thing to do, but are there math/code on this? I can see it depend on the neighborhood (Moore or Von Neuman, I assume it's Moore), and the specific way forest spread.

 

[s.bernbaum]

chess-table chopping for regrowth

Intuitively, it sounds the best thing to do, but are there math/code on this? I can see it depend on the neighborhood (Moore or Von Neuman, I assume it's Moore), and the specific way forest spread.

I don't recall who it was but someone did dig into the code for this in the past. There was quite a discussion of it at the time. The summary is that the code increases the odds of forest regrowth for the following:
1. Only forests on the adjacent tiles N, S, E, and W influence the tile. Diagonal tiles have no effect. The more of the 4 adjacent tiles that are forested, the higher the odds that there will be regrowth.
2. The tile itself must be undeveloped.
3. Undeveloped adjacent forest tiles are necessary to raise the regrowth odds rather than developed in any way. The exception is roads. Roads lower the odds but don't eliminate them.
4. Longer time spans increase the odds of regrowth: Marathon > Epic > Normal > Quick
5. Regrowth is more likely in earlier eras.

Therefore, the chess-table (or checker board if you prefer ) does increase the odds of regrowth. I frequently use it myself.

 

[MAvL]

Thanks a lot!

3. Undeveloped adjacent forest tiles are necessary to raise the regrowth odds rather than developed in any way. The exception is roads. Roads lower the odds but don't eliminate them.

Do you mean roads on forest lowers their chance to spread? or road on target blank tile? or both? Does lumbermill stop the spreading of a forest?

4. Longer time spans increase the odds of regrowth: Marathon > Epic > Normal > Quick

over the (longer) course of the game I assume, not each turn?

You use the word "regrowth" rightfully assuming the tile might have contained a forest, but there aren't any functional difference between tiles which once contained a forest and the other, right

 

[s.bernbaum]

Thanks a lot!


Do you mean roads on forest lowers their chance to spread? or road on target blank tile? or both? Does lumbermill stop the spreading of a forest?

If there is a road on the "target" tile, a forest will never grow there. Roads on the four adjacent tiles lower the odds of the target tile growing a forest. Lumber mills on adjacent tiles prevent the adjacent tiles from stimulating growth on the target tile. However, that only means the tile with the lumber mill will not contribute. For example, if all four of the N,S,E,W tiles have forests but two to them have lumber mills, only the two without lumber mills will contribute to the odds for forest growth on the target tile.

over the (longer) course of the game I assume, not each turn?

That is correct.

You use the word "regrowth" rightfully assuming the tile might have contained a forest, but there aren't any functional difference between tiles which once contained a forest and the other, right

Yes, the same rules apply to initially unforested tiles with no resources on them. Since we were discussing post chopping I was saying regrowth but new growth follows the same rules.

 

[Lennier]

If there is a road on the "target" tile, a forest will never grow there.

Not quite true; roads on the "target" tile lowers chance of regrowth by 50%. I have had forests regrow on roaded tiles. (But I play marathon, so I get more turns for regrowth.)

It also seems to me that tundra has a lower chance of regrowth than plains or grassland.

 

[6K Man]

Don't Forest Preserves double the regrowth chance on adjacent tiles?