Open Borders still unlocked with Civil Service, ruins games.

[Paramite_Pie]

I've lurked here on and off for a year or so but I've made an account just to discuss this.

One of the few things I preferred about Vanilla was unlocking Open Borders with Writing. By the time that Civs could expand enough to restrict the map with their borders, most of them had researched Writing regardless of their strategy, and had the ability to let each other pass through their borders. Then in G+K, unlocking Open Borders was moved far, far along the tech tree to Civil Service.

Now, rushing to Civil service makes this restriction somewhat more tolerable, but I see it as downright broken when playing a wider/warmongering strategy with less focus on rushing the top of the tree. Not being able to get open borders until sometime past turn 100 is ridiculous. It stops you being able to do simple things like help a friendly Civ under attack or simply pass through their borders which are locking down the map.

It is a valid part of the game for players or AI to lock people out of their borders in this way, but it's supposed to be a choice, and being forced to declare war on a friendly player or AI just to pass through their borders or assist them with war is one of the stupidest things in the game since City Swapping.

It's even worse now that declaring war will disrupt trade routes.

In one and a half years I've never found anyone discuss the change online, and now that it's the same in BNW I have to ask, what possible logic was behind this change in the first place, and is there any possibility of Firaxis making Open Borders available earlier as part of a patch if we make enough fuss and it's a valid demand?

 

[Jerman]

I've lurked here on and off for a year or so but I've made an account just to discuss this.

One of the few things I preferred about Vanilla was unlocking Open Borders with Writing. By the time that Civs could expand enough to restrict the map, most of them had writing regardless of their play style, and had the ability to let each other pass through their borders. Then in G+K, unlocking Open Borders was moved far, far along the tech tree to Civil Service.

Now, rushing to Civil service makes this restriction somewhat more tolerable, but I see it as downright broken when playing a wider/warmongering strategy with less focus on rushing the top of the tree. Not being able to get open borders until sometime past turn 100 is ridiculous. It stops you being able to do simple things like help a friendly Civ under attack or simply pass through their borders which are locking down the map.

It is a valid part of the game for players or AI to lock people out of their borders in this way, but it's supposed to be a choice, and being forced to declare war on a friendly player or AI just to pass through their borders or assist them with war is one of the stupidest things in the game since City Swapping.

It's even worse now that declaring war will disrupt trade routes.

In one and a half years I've never found anyone discuss the change online, and now that it's the same in BNW I have to ask, what possible logic was behind this change in the first place, and is there any possibility of Firaxis making Open Borders available earlier as part of a patch if we make enough fuss and it's a valid demand?

Welcome to Civ Fanatics,

I agree, it gets annoying when another civ locks down another part of the Continent and you have no way of going past then until civil service, that being said, because you can get embassies at writing, then moved it for balance purposes.

 

[JSMCAG]

Welcome to Civ Fanatics,

I agree, it gets annoying when another civ locks down another part of the Continent and you have no way of going past then until civil service, that being said, because you can get embassies at writing, then moved it for balance purposes.

Wasn't that players were selling their Open Borders for early cash that they moved it to Civil Service?
Now that Lump Sum trades are gone unless you are friends, I wonder what would be the effects of moving it back to Writing... I mean, I guess players could still ask 1GPT for opening their borders, but that is way less powerful than 25 gold straight up...

 

[Jerman]

Wasn't that players were selling their Open Borders for early cash that they moved it to Civil Service?
Now that Lump Sum trades are gone unless you are friends, I wonder what would be the effects of moving it back to Writing... I mean, I guess players could still ask 1GPT for opening their borders, but that is way less powerful than 25 gold straight up...

True, but in reality everyone uses exploits, even Sid Meier's only son Maddijinn Christ, who came to CFC to cleanse us of our sins, found the church of pasta, and to steal workers from city states. Everyone does it.

 

[joncnunn]

Writing was by far the most common second researched tech in Vanilla and G&K for humans. (I think it still is in BNW, but perhaps by a somewhat smaller percentage)

Which was so early that for the human it may as well have been with Agriculture.

This might well be a non issue with BNW; 25 gold being less than 1 GPT, you might have to have a DOF to get anything other than a mutual open border from it.

 

[MerchantCo]

Open Borders should belong to an earlier tech. Early-game diplomacy is far too drab. "Don't settle near me", land-coveting, wonder-coveting, and what-not, but still boring.

 

[Rhaegar7]

If you're not rushing to Civil Service then you're doing something wrong. More often than not it means a 10+ food boost in your capitol alone if you haven't let your workers sunbathe too much. I'd think wanting open borders vs the computer is something of an exploit. A human player will make your life hell when he can. The computer will happily let you do whatever you want for 50 gold, because he's dumb. Focus on something more interesting.. Like how to rush conquer (and probably raze) the nearest town that threatens to steal good tiles from you and force someone to pay up all his cash so that you dont go to war with them and by the time you're all over that Civil Service should be done.

I myself think it's perfectly fine where it is.