Open letter to Tholal: please unfix Luchuirp worldspell

[[to_xp]Gekko]

he said that game is at Deity, not Noble. but he's a very good player and he's already posted won deity games with doviello, so he could come up with an equally great save with any civ really

great engineers could work, but seems more like something for a modmod

 

[Horatius]

You can't post a T121 sorcery pick for justification if that game was played on noble.

Yeah, fireball tokens are good, but there's much better setups out there.

First screenshot on noble and the rest on diety (another game). That shot was just to make a point. You can reach it quite fast if you are unharassed. It would be the same if isolated on immortal (on diety things techs are more expensive, so it would take a little while longer). Even if I had to take 30 more turns (setting up a proper defense) to get to sorcery it would still be a good timing.

That there are better setups is an obvious thing. I don't even like Luchuirp actually. The point is they are not bad. Better than Doviello...

If GPP points are the problem, they could settle as Great Engineers, which do not provide Engineer GPP. If great engineers provide too much hammers, they could settle as an special building that produces the amount of production required instead. What's wrong with playing as noble?

Why not?
Btw, what do you think of trying to make ALL golems really cheap at first but with an increase of cost for each subsequent unit? That would make a few of them useful and cost effective early and prevent one from getting 200 WG with fireballs easily at the same time. Also a building that can give them mobility at IW or Engineering?
What do you guys think of such ideas?

 

[Qgqqqqq]

Yeah my point was basically that using a noble game (particularly as a deity player) to prove that point is bad considering the extra time it normally takes.
I wasn't meaning to disparage noble players.

My thoughts on the luchyitp (ignore horrible spelling) is that their setup (fireball a unit) is not good enough to justify the big problems with golems - high cost (especially for the early game, the 150% work rate is not good enough consolation, especially when the dwarf worker is 125% default anyway), lack of mobility (yeah mud golem works, but is a poor substitute for move 3 (mobility+haste stacks).) high reliance on one unit, who must get highly promoted to boost army and has an enormous loss if killed, and Levi of flexibility (empowers =/= the ability to take promos on a per fight basis

Basically the are sufficient against the ai, but weak against a competent opponent.

 

[Folket]

I found the post to be very instructive. It made the Luchiurp seem strong.

 

[Horatius]

Yeah my point was basically that using a noble game (particularly as a deity player) to prove that point is bad considering the extra time it normally takes.
I wasn't meaning to disparage noble players.

Meh. The point is that it is not expensive. If isolated on diety it doesn't take much longer. I don't get your comment.
I think you're the kind of player that just puts a focus in what is really powerful. But Ffh2 is a game, once you are used to it, to experiment, not just to win.
It is fun to see how fast you can get things. For example, with Sabathiel I've been able to have 3 cities producing L4 fauns to mass upgrade to Satyrs by turn 170 on diety. That's Animal Handling and Military Strategy with the necessary buildings on all cities and the form of the titan and the heroic epic. Now you say to me: "there are better and easier setups!". But they do not provide quick and mass Satyr fun!
So, you see, I can prove myself the point

My thoughts on the luchyitp (ignore horrible spelling) is that their setup (fireball a unit) is not good enough to justify the big problems with golems - high cost (especially for the early game, the 150% work rate is not good enough consolation, especially when the dwarf worker is 125% default anyway), lack of mobility (yeah mud golem works, but is a poor substitute for move 3 (mobility+haste stacks).) high reliance on one unit, who must get highly promoted to boost army and has an enormous loss if killed, and Levi of flexibility (empowers =/= the ability to take promos on a per fight basis Basically the are sufficient against the ai, but weak against a competent opponent.

Everything is sufficient against the ai. To win against humans, you pick a few civs and that's it.

You compare the mud golem with the dwarf worker. Why not compare it with the orc or elf worker?
Also, empower is not crucial by anymeans, there's no high reliance. I do hate that they don't get exp, though.
But are you going to tell me that Luchuirp have more trouble killing stuff than, say, Elohim, for example? Why is it that Firebows are respected but not wood golems? Firebows are more expensive...
Anyway, mobility is crucial in MP, especially when people play quick speed, and that's that. I'm not arguing against that. I'm arguing that they are not bad at all to play with. There are building victories, and mobility inside borders is not the same as outside...

I think that maybe rangers should be unblocked so that we can mix some of those units in to compensate for golem mobility when moving out. That's also a possible solution.

Finally, Boar Riders are too neglected for some reason. You can get a mean and quick Boar rush with financial and fast markets to bulb HR, etc with an extra 10% withdrawl. Not bad.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

Horatius, I think all you're really doing is just proving that a human can always beat the AI no matter how horrible the civ he's using is, which doesn't really add anything to the discussion. You mention defensive and boar riders, it's pretty clear you enjoy playing underpowered combos and succeeding with them despite the odds being stacked against you.

QG is looking at things from a different perspective, a competitive one based on MP ( where opponents play by the same rules instead of one cheating like hell and the other's gameplay being completely warped because of it i.e. Deity AI ) . Tholal changed the Luchuirp worldspell because he felt it made them too powerful, which raised eyebrows since Luchuirp are universally considered a weak civ ( and in FFH weak civs tend to get strong worldspells to compensate) which didn't need the nerf. the fact you can perform well with them is hardly surprising, and not really representative of their real power level compared to the others.

the goal of ffh2 IS to win, despite the fact some people enjoy playing SP and finding wacky combos. that's called metagaming. of course he looks at what's powerful, that's the whole point of the game remember? to be more powerful than the others and ultimately win

garrym gyr and boar riders are two particularly bad examples. luchuirp are focused on golems, it's their appeal, their theme and their reason to exist ingame. and defensive doesn't work on them. if you need to use nerfed horsemen to be competitive, it's an egregious show that the civ is underpowered.

you also recommend giving them rangers and more mobility, but that just makes them the same as everyone else. the golem price increase over time is also way too complicated to consider imo. if they need these buffs, why not just leave their worldspell strong so they're powerful while playing differently than others?

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

also, I think you're overestimating stacked golden hammers. GPP points required for each GP pop go up very fast and you need more and more of them so perpetual golden age seems very hard to do. wonderhogging is also not as hot as it looks, because:

1) there's not many wonders in ffh
2) most of them are not so good anyway
3) you still need the techs for them

so researching stuff just to be able to build wonders with your engineers is not a very good idea, you'll be following a subpar techpath and not get much to show for it in exchange.

using the WS early vs late used to balanced itself as usual, the only way to really exploit it was to REX but that puts you in a vulnerable position which is dangerous both vs high level AI and humans alike.

 

[Horatius]

I find it funny that you say that I add nothing to the discussion. I agree that they are worse in MP. So what?

I never said that I don't play Ffh2 MP, as you obviously assume. I don't play it with YOU.
Look, between the BTS MP comunity and the Ffh2 MP, I have no doubts about who have delusions and who can play.
If I have beaten my buddies in MP Ffh2 with Luchuirp when I actually end up playing it instead of BTS, then that means that Luchuirp is not terrible. Plain and simple. Because they know what they are doing.
Obviously they're not the best pick. The game is not balanced. Meh. But what's wrong with using other units as well instead of just golems?!

My suggestions are better than correcting the world spell. And no, I'm not overestimating the GPPs. With Arete, national epic and other specialists, its pretty easy to get a bunch of great persons.
I never said that wonderwhoring is great, btw.

You're just stuck with a certain perspective of the game: Why are you repeating the obvious saying that they are not as good as others? Again, I never said that they are really great. I was hinting that you don't know how to play them. Which is probably true.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

I didn't say you add nothing to the discussion, merely that you seemed to be shifting the topic sideways.

it's not that building lvl4 fawns out of the gate isn't interesting for example, it is. but what does it have to do with the Luchuirp worldspell?

due to the nature of how GP spawning works, 1 engineer per city is hardly something to write home about. specialists need to be stacked to be effective, which is why you generally have one single national epic GP farm.

the Realms Beyond community considers Luchuirp bad enough to deserve a buff instead of a nerf: I guess none of them know how to play the Luchuirp?

 

[Qgqqqqq]

I had a big post written which I lost, but suffice to say I don't think you can so easily categories me (not do u agree with it, and are distort.g what gekko and I are arguing. Not that we won't them to be empowered but that they are tremendously weak compared to their compatriots and suffer compared to other armies they're supposed ti be good at .
Here's a link where the weakness of luchuirp is discussed (its not just that post it goes on for some 100 posts) (link: http://realmsbeyond.net/forums/showthread.php?tid=4357&pid=178666#pid178666).
Yes its for a balance mod but I think it demonstrates well their weakness in a multiplayer context.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

it sucks to lose a big post

if you notice your post getting lengthy, I recommend copypasting it into a text file before you hit "post message" , that way if something goes wrong you won't have wasted your time

 

[Qgqqqqq]

Yeah I do sometimes, but mine tend to grow organically and its a pain to switch Windows (I post off my phone).

 

[Calavente]

as Qgqqqq (regarding long post.)

I learned the hard way to do a Ctrl-A -Ctrl-C before clicking on "Post Quick Reply" ....

as for luirchips.
long Time I've not played them.
however, as said, I liked their former spell with the timing question... and the investment in hammers... 4scouts : 80hammers early hammers at least. equilibrium obtained in 20 turns .. which is not SO great... you spent 40+ turns of investment. + payback in 20 turns.. 60+ turns investment before getting a return on investment.

as for luirchips issues :
-1) they are slow : engineering should allow them to get something. Or maybe That hero golem could "transfer" some mobility 1 promotion with more xp... the benefit is high, but the cost too: more xp for lvl 7 will become dangerous to get for Barnaxus.
-2) no issue with mud golem, save that in food-heavy land.. it take a while to get even one.
- 3) fireballs.... and against demons or orcs ??? and how do you defend with firballs against 15 mvt high withdrawal hasted commando (raider) hippus horsemen / horsearchers?? or centaurs ?. you can't even see them and nex turn you have no stack.... or the time necessary to move your stack... well half your cities are taken.
- 4) you miss most of the fun on upgrading units
- 5) no rangers, no longbow, weaker mounted... all relies on golem. and golem are slow, and expensive.

So I agree. they can be fun to play. but slowness is a nerf by itself ; a huge one. and having a nerfed WS is a nerf on a nerfed civ.

 

[akatosh]

Horatius,

I think you are a far stronger player than most of us. Serious question--should Luchuirp be buffed/nerfed based on your skill level, or the median skill level of the player base?

 

[akatosh]

On a side note--why does everyone think Doviello is so bad? I have seen a lot of people say that they are the worst civ in the game (even under Mahala, I agree Charadon sucks)... but I have had far less luck playing Clan and Luchuirp. I can't seem to get anything done with these two civs, playing on Immortal.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

the main problem with Doviello is that what they do well, the Clan does better. their leaders have bad traits ( Mahala synergizes well, but still no match for Jonas/Sheelba imo ) , Charadon can't really take benefit of Barbarian without Rantine to convert cities, beastmen go obsolete as soon as you get bronze working ( thankfully soon to be fixed in MNAI ) , battlemasters suck ( worse than champions, more expensive ) , War Machine comes too late to matter, and they are far too dependant on luck ( lose Lucian at long odds and you might as well forfeit ) .

they are a one trick pony overshadowed by the Clan basically.

speaking of the Clan, I'm bad with them so no tips here, but I can offer a couple for Luchuirp:

Garrym sucks so use Beeri. start a mud golem and tech calendar first, code of laws second to abuse financial asap. expand rapidly to get the most out of your worldspell. get construction + knowledge of the ether for golems and catapults backed up by repair adepts, which will make you a lot safer. get sanitation to overcharge your aristograrian economy. get elementalism, build a fire node and get sorcery. your power phase starts once you get fireballing golems, so seize the initiative then. for religion I like AV since golems are immune to most armageddon effects. you're industrious so try to grab marble and build wonders that will fit your plan. guild of hammers is excellent and you want engineering for faster road movement for active defense, others are more situational. if you can grab the RoK holy city, you can stack tablets of bambur, mines of galdur ( gives some pretty nasty chariots as fast troops ) , bone palace, guild of hammers and national epic for plenty of engineers. I also like aquae sucellus to counter the mines' unhealtiness. great engineers have nice bulb options available, especially if you avoid teching archery ( they bulb bowyers with archery iirc ) .

at high difficulty levels this startup phase is too slow to grab decent military though, you generally have to grab bronze asap for the very price efficient bronze warriors to defend against an incoming rush. I'm not a fan of that kind of gameplay though, I'd rather start low with increasing difficulty to keep the game challenging while avoiding the predictable early onslaught.

make sure you check the top ten tips thread for info about each civ's playstyle, there's some great luchuirp tips there

 

[doktarr]

Horatius,

I think you are a far stronger player than most of us. Serious question--should Luchuirp be buffed/nerfed based on your skill level, or the median skill level of the player base?

I'm not even sure what that would mean. Are you trying to argue that an extremely skilled player like Horatius can do better with the Luchuirp than he can with most other civs? If not, then his ability to do well with them isn't particularly relevant. If top players think the Luchuirp are a power civ while average players think they are a weak civ, then that would matter, but I don't think anyone is arguing that.

(FWIW I have taken to playing accelerating difficulty like Gekko suggests as well.)

Just to reiterate what I said earlier in the thread - I've always considered the disbanded scouts/warriors to be a hack. I don't really like the idea of returning to the hack. I prefer the current MNAI setup to that, frankly. If we want to allow pooling of golden hammers, we should just make them droppable.

To tie this into the recent discussions - does anyone think droppable hammers would make the Luchuirp too powerful? It does create a strategy that humans can exploit but the AI probably can't.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

yes, I think droppable hammers would be too much. I've always considered the loss of some troops a fair price to pay to be able to stack the hammers. and if you can't stack them, dropping them loses most of its utility so why even bother?

 

[Calavente]

like gekko on the principle.

however another solution would be "undroppable OR unstackable hammers" BUT with a boost :

-on city : improved output : 2 free Artisan or free GE + ARtisan, or free building that gives : free artisan + artisan place + 1/2 free hammers.
-on units (to make it worthwhile):
either : +2/+1str (instead of +1/0)
or +1str (instead of +1attack) + .... bonus :
-> +enable to build forts and roads and a +x% vs cities, +x% defense ?
-> +courage + x% vs hill giants and non-living (undeads/demons/mechanicals/summons...etc)?
-> allow to cast "hast" on unliving (solving the "golem-cannot move fast" issue).

well... something to make it worth it to get those hammers stay on an unit.
(but those would be either balance or modmod so out of topic for MnAI... so let go to gekko's solution and unfix the bug).

 

[Qgqqqqq]

If golems had mobility they would be overpowered.