P666-01 Fix the Trash Game

ok, i opened every game but cam's, but i have the feeling Vudu's our trash queen. my vote goes to the slow teching, slow exploring, 0 warrior game from Vudu (sorry lady, explanations beneath).

My approach is less excel like, but just as scientific, IMHO :

* Pigswill's strategy is clear : going for the Oracle. For this, he teched in this direction, including BW for rushing/chopping it, built a worker and a settler for this building task, and 2 warriors to protect the cities. No :smoke: there.

* Petrucci's strategy isn't as clear, but the result is OK, with good exploration, good teching, 1 warrior, 1 worker, 1 settler next turn, 2 scouts

* mice's strategy is more :smoke:. Settling S of the initial spot is a bad move, + second city too far from it makes a stripe of good land unworkable, including the gold! exploration is so so, he didn't tech to wheel :nono: or pottery, . It's a good trash candidate, but he has 2 cities, one size 2, the other size 1, with a warrior in every city, and a worker to improve the tiles.

* WIII's game is impressive, because of the exploration! If i read the game well, he was looking for a good warmonger's second city, which is a good plan. Having BW,IW, AH gives him good option to use his settler for a second city near the mongols, ready to crush them. The lack of wheel is bad, though.

* cam described his game well enough, so i see it's not :smoke: Going for archery is a waste IMHO, but in some situations, you're happy to have those archers. 2 warriors is enough, a settler on the way is good too. I'll have a look on the use made of those warriors : worker robbery? fogbusting, opening the way for the settler? all in all, the strat isn't as clear as pigwill's but leads to a good situation.

* Vudu. No offense meant, don't get mad at me please. But this is defintely a trash game! You have a minimal exploration done, your city is still size 1, you have 2 workers, 1 settler and no warrior to escort/open the way = you can't even send him away from home. Tech rate was slow, since you could not work the mines, obviously. The 0 warriors make our civ an easy prey, + at size 1 you can't even pop rush one!


for a complete round, here is my save (removed to save space), but remember it was just to get the feel of the game before saying :smoke: to anyone ;)
(just to be sure i could still play Prince, i tried a second game and did much better, with a copper city, a worker robbery from mongols and faster tech)
 
On VuDu's game, I wouldn't go so far to say "defintely a trash game" - the Worker>Worker>Settler approach is formulaic and widely accepted, but I personally think that it might be wrong here. Furthermore, the 'missing element' as I understand this tactic is that you're supposed to chop out the second Worker and the Settler, which wasn't done.

As Cabert has identified, there's a Russian-roulette element with the Settler as there's no escort, or an escort needs to be built thereby wasting several turns. Normally the starting Scout / Warrior returns towards home-base for this function, but VuDu's Scout got eaten.

Pigswill noted on VuDu's submission; "so once you go for growth it'll catch up quick", and I couldn't agree more. It's not an 'out of the blocks' game, but shows good longer-term prospects.

Unless Mice, VuDu, William or Petrucci want to debate this further, I think we can charge ahead to Round 2, with VuDu's game ... 39 turns (VuDu used 41 in Round 1) to finish at 875 BC.

Hopefully Paul666 can join in this week. :)

We might have a small issue in that William's game shows up 'hidden' resources - do we pretend not to know where they are?
 
Cam_H said:
On VuDu's game, I wouldn't go so far to say "defintely a trash game" - the Worker>Worker>Settler approach is formulaic and widely accepted, but I personally think that it might be wrong here. Furthermore, the 'missing element' as I understand this tactic is that you're supposed to chop out the second Worker and the Settler, which wasn't done.
did i sound harsh?
well, sorry for this then. Just wanted to outline that there were problems to solve (the whole concept of the thread!)

As Cabert has identified, there's a Russian-roulette element with the Settler as there's no escort, or an escort needs to be built thereby wasting several turns. Normally the starting Scout / Warrior returns towards home-base for this function, but VuDu's Scout got eaten.
Pigswill noted on VuDu's submission; "so once you go for growth it'll catch up quick", and I couldn't agree more. It's not an 'out of the blocks' game, but shows good longer-term prospects.

there is also a lack of tech, and a lack of exploration...
Military, tech and exploration will have to be made in the next round.

We might have a small issue in that William's game shows up 'hidden' resources - do we pretend not to know where they are?

well... yes. Let's play pretend.
Just one more thing... Vudu's exploration doesn't show copper (only the one next to mongols :eek:), so let's play pretend for this too! (no AH, no IW, no exploration = blind)
 
Thanks for the feedback, and not picking me!
I see that the tech rate difference in Cam_H's and pigswill's game really tells the story.
Can the Mon/Emp players give a few pointers as to how to get this rate up in the first 40+ moves.
 
I don't know abour Cam_H but since chopping got nerfed a standard start is to build a worker first while researching food improvements then just basically grow city coz its better in this instance to wait ten turns and work two metals than work one straight away; can't think of anything else.

I should clarify that I'm more of a prince/monarch player. Prince I can play badly and still win. Monarch remains a challenge for me.
 
Cabert,

I *think* VuDu has tried to follow the 'optimal growth' tactic laid out by ohioastronomy, but there's a problem in that (a.) only half the strategy was employed, (b.) there wasn't the flexibility in the approach to make the most of our great starting position, and (c.) as Pigswill infers; the nerfing of chopping in 1.61 has curtailed the effectiveness of this tactic to a large extent. Coupled with this is some unfortunate luck with her Scouts being eaten by wildlife.

While VuDu's is arguably the least successful game in this particular round, I think that it's not a bad foundation for future rounds. Once a couple of units are built and Berlin grows, it should be fine. 'Yes' - the lack of exploration is unfortunate, but anyone could have walked their Scouts into Bears and Lions. I don't know if VuDu was moving her Scouts 'protectively' or not.

I agree that we shall proceed on the basis that that we don't 'know' where Horses, Iron, and other Copper tiles are.

Mice,

I'll echo pigswill's comment. Alternate between growth and working the metals - this might mean throwing the city into 'negative food growth' at times. Eventually it will find its balance and will truly fly with Bureaucracy. My game finished its cycle on a high-commerce point with the Gold and a Silver tile worked, but it could easily have been a high-food point where the tech' rate could have been miserable.

To all ...

Nobody wants to put forward "the trash game", but bear in mind that this exercise is about us helping each other. If you happen to be 'the one', take stock, suck it in, and learn from it. I don't want to 'gloss over' weaknesses in the least successful submission, but equally I would hate for anyone to get too despondent about this exercise that they give up.
 
Certainly have to agree with Cam_H about scouts walking into beasties; it's what happened to mine. Vudu's game should be fixable easily; be interesting to see who's voted 'best' next round.
 
mice said:
Thanks for the feedback, and not picking me!

well, i hesitated between your game and vudu's because, vudu is less advanced but yours is more :smoke:

I see that the tech rate difference in Cam_H's and pigswill's game really tells the story.
Can the Mon/Emp players give a few pointers as to how to get this rate up in the first 40+ moves.

it's about using the "best" tiles at the best moment.
You don't want to build a settler "fast" at the cost of 14 cpt, do you?
I don't, when my total commerce is only 16!

about the scout got eaten thing, well i had 2, both got eaten
the problem is the worker worker settler approach
It's not really efficient.

Just one more thing : just as cam_h said, it's not that bad if we're selected as trash game.
In fact i'm sure cam_h, pigswill or myself can produce a game which will look like a bad situation (well, open mine at 2400BC!) at a point. If there is a strategy behind, it's not the situation now that counts, it's where it's going!
 
cabert said:
well, i hesitated between your game and vudu's because, vudu is less advanced but yours is more :smoke:

I've got to say that I was 'surprised' to say the least on the option to move south and settle Berlin there! ;) You have rebounded by getting Hamburg in that great spot however, which 'saved your bacon' as far as I was concerned!
 
Cam_H said:
I've got to say that I was 'surprised' to say the least on the option to move south and settle Berlin there!

I dont know what I was thinking. Maybe I thought there would be too much overlap with the planned Hamburg, but it's clear that there wouldnt've been.

Live and learn, hopefully.
 
Guys and Gal,


I'm ready to try the next round! Enjoyed reading everyone's thoughts as well as looking at everyones game. The next round is for best submitted game? And everyone gets a shot?
 
cabert said:
* Vudu. No offense meant, don't get mad at me please. But this is defintely a trash game!
No offense taken - I'm fully expecting to have my save picked as the worst every time. There are some fundamental concepts that I have somehow missed along the way, and I'm hoping this is going to pinpoint what they are so I can improve and move up in level.

Cam_H said:
I *think* VuDu has tried to follow the 'optimal growth' tactic laid out by ohioastronomy, but there's a problem in that (a.) only half the strategy was employed, (b.) there wasn't the flexibility in the approach to make the most of our great starting position
I can't credit using anyone else's strategy (thus missing the other half of the strategy) - this build just works for me a lot of the time.

So it looks like my first weakness is that I never paid attention about how commerce affects tech rate. Because of this I wasn't in a hurry to grow in order to work the mine.

Cam_H said:
I don't know if VuDu was moving her Scouts 'protectively' or not.
I was - just a bit of bad luck there.

Cam_H said:
I don't want to 'gloss over' weaknesses in the least successful submission
Please don't gloss over for me - I'd prefer the opposite, really.
 
This is a fun idea and glad everyone is enjoying, I'm taking alot of this advice and applying it for future games! Will be interesting the end product when we have TAKEN OVER THE WORLD!
 
just lurkin'

This looks like it's going to be a really interesting game. What a great idea! :goodjob:

If you have room for one more Monarch-level player, I'd love to play. Otherwise, I'll be lurking around and piping up every once in a while. :) Seeing how different people play is wonderful for learning new things - just about everyone (including me) get caught in ruts that are safe and generally work well enough, but miss out on other opportunities.

VuDu said:
So it looks like my first weakness is that I never paid attention about how commerce affects tech rate. Because of this I wasn't in a hurry to grow in order to work the mine.

Exactly. Generally, one way I look at the opening is to see how many "strong" tiles I have. I consider a strong tile something that produces at least 5 Food+Production like pigs, cows, sheep, corn, and wheat, or a metal mine.

In this case, you have three metal mines (one too many for the food, unfortunately :sad:) and a river corn tile, so I'd build a worker to hook those up and grow to size 3 to take advantage of them. If you didn't have the metals and just the corn, I probably would have gone Worker -> Worker -> Settler too, with all those forests to chop.

On the other hand, the set up right now isn't as bad as it looks comparatively. With two workers free to do what they need since you have all the improvements you need until the city is size 7, you can stand that second city very quickly. And there is some nice land out there for it! :yes:

The main problem, other than the lack of early research, is the bad luck with the bear. But really, that's going to be an element of the "trash" game - figuring out ways to recover from bad luck is just as important as from mistakes.

I'm not so sure I'd rate VuDu's as the "trash" game. :) William III's execution and luck was definitely better, but I'm not sure if, strategically, an early war is the best idea in a start like this...
 
I've just done my second round, but will post later in the week when they're due.

I've been able to capture all of the cities on the continent, and am two turns off Military Tradition.

j/k ;)

Actually, it's another 'workman-like' performance.

armstrong,

I tend to agree with your comment that "I'm not sure if, strategically, an early war is the best idea in a start like this" ... William did some great work in trying to locate the strategic resources in his submission, and I think that it is access to these strategic resources and the looming Keshik unit that will have a few interesting impacts on the next few rounds.
 
Strategic resources brings up an interesting point... for instance, William's map shows where copper is, but VuDu's doesn't. Since y'all have looked at the saves to evaluate them, how do you deal with that extra knowledge?

If I were to play the next set with omnipotent knowledge, for instance, I would probably plan on settling that copper with my third city. But - if I were to play VuDu's set purely - I shouldn't know where it is and would then only be able to settle it if I scouted it. But even worse, it'd be unfair to scout where you know what you want to find, so how can you decide which direction to explore? You can try to mimic your normal behavior, but...

Oh, to qoute myself: ;)

armstrong said:
If you have room for one more Monarch-level player, I'd love to play.

Do you have some room? Or should I lurk? Or should I shut up? :mischief:
 
armstrong,

Thanks for your interest and feedback.

On the first point, we've agreed to disregard the other saves and play VuDu's game as if we have no idea where the good stuff is. With that said, I think that sending a unit north, another west, and another east would be a pretty sensible approach provided that the empire is adequately protected.

While I'm uninclined to 'show my hand' too much on my Round 2 game, I felt that I would have gone north and east under 'normal' circumstances, and have not settled west as a result.

(I'll ask the guys and gal on your other request by messaging.)
 
Also finished my second round. Pure vanilla. Will post later.
 
Armstrong,

The Committee has considered your request, and you're in. :cooool:

I would like to put a cap on the size of the roster for now.

As an aside, if anyone on the roster decides to drop out for any reason at some future point, if possible please let the rest of us know.
 
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