Pie's Ancient Europe

[areon]

When I fire up the beta v I'm not getting any buttons or interface to use. On the plus side it got me to try out the f keys.

 

[mourndraken]

introducing a victory movie for PAE V:
Cartho Victor
content for Keinpferd's Punic War Scenario

http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=19545​

 

[pie_at]

hey areon,

-) do you have Bug installed? Try to uninstall it, because Bug changes original files.
-) install (unpack) again, perhaps sthg wasn't installed correcty. is it in the correct folder?
-) download again, perhaps sthg got wrong while downloading.

 

[Kublai-Khan]

Hi Pie, I downloaded version IV and it crushes a lot, so I save the game a lot of times to reload it just in case.
Is that very unusual? Should I try with version III?

I downloaded the game through steam

 

[pie_at]

Hi Kublai,

if PAE IV crashes at the beginning of late antiquity then it's normal
sry, but this problem has been debugged in the PAE V BETA. Take the Beta or wait for the Beta 2.

if PAE crashes in the beginning or when starting the mod, pls check the right folder. for steam users it is another folder then eg. C:\Program Files\Civ4\Beyond...

 

[Kublai-Khan]

thanks, I will download V beta!

 

[stolenrays]

PIE, I was thinking. Maybe the walls you wanted can be made to work with the aqueduct graphics. They'd be larger walls, just not like the great wall.

 

[pie_at]

tell me more...

 

[stolenrays]

That's really all I have now until I investigate further. Thought you might know something.

 

[mourndraken]

Mod the aquaducts ? That would be outstanding !

 

[Keinpferd]

Here's a quick (Google translator based) translation of Pie's newest draft for a supply system of armies, that he introduced today on the German forum:

CONCEPT: Unit supply

----- SUPPLY UNIT (Supply Wagons, Druids, Brahmans) -----

A supply unit can be used in addition to his work as a healer as supporter for large stacks (of more than 20 units).
He has a capacity of 200 (support points).
When marking a stack the sum of all support points will appear as a bar in the main window.

Charging the supply unit:

Depending on the surrounding terrain, a supply unit can recharge as follows:

Own terrain: City: +50, Country: +20

Vassal territory: only with a 40% (Python) chance: City: +50, Country: +20

Friendly terrain (depending on the diplo relation to the leader: City: +50, Country: +20).
Delighted: 30% chance
Friendly: 20%
Cautious: 10%
All other: 0%

Hostile terrain (modernizations and yields of the tile being "confiscated" by the stack):
Farm (Irrigated): +30
Farm (Unirrigated): +20
Irrigation Canals: +40
Well or Oasis: +30
River: +20
Neutral ground:
Oasis: +30
River: +20

Supply of units:

Each military unit consumes 1 supply point per round.
Mounted units consume twice as much in deserts (ie 2 instead of 1).

Stack damage:

In lack of a supply unit, a stack will be suffering damage each round:
Infantry: 15% Damage
Cavalry: 20% Damage

-------------- CITIES --------------

Cities are to provide only a certain number of units with food.

One unit per pop can be supplied. Each additional unit consumes 0.5 food from food surplus.

Excessive numbers of units in a city will result in a subtraction of supply points.*

In addition, there is a (Python) chance of 1:3 (33%) that the following happens:

20% chance: Units loose strength (20%), -1 pop in the city
10% chance: Units loose strength (20%), a small disease occurs (not the great (plague))
70% chance: a warning to the player pops up. The AI will withdraw troops out of the city or maybe won't (1:2 chance).

Both the disease risk and the excessive number of units will display in the uppest PAE city status bar in the city window.

Caution: If the city shrinks, it can really cause the severe type of disease (plague).
The plague has a radius of 1. Besieging units should withdraw then.​

 

[wolfman1234]

Very very very good idea, bravo!!!

In that times supply was the key of victory. Perhaps this will change the combat in civ, not so many stacks of doom.

Mm...i am thinking, what prevents of carrying 10 supply units?

 

[En_Dotter]

Um...

In addition, there is a (Python) chance of 1:3 (33%) that the following happens:

Thats either 1:2 or 25%. So is it 25% or 33%?

EDIT:
Nvm im stupid... Headache is a nasty thing...

 

[alexyankee42]

Ok, I must apologize for not getting around to this, but I did have a chance to very quickly scan the finished "infos" and "pedia" entries and make a few corrections. The last couple of pages of infos had not been translated when I last looked them over, so I just had a few corrections. The pedias all look really good, though I don't have time to fact check and I was just skimming through them.

 

[mourndraken]

Hey there

PAE V continues to show itself as an amazing total conversion of BTS. This post by Keinpferd, discusses some innovative stuff. I read this stuff and I have lots of questions and hope the answers will assist making these important game concepts more concise and defined. While trying to digest this change to game play, I have taken Keinpferd's post and reorganized/reworded it ; and have added my own assumptions into Keinpferd's text.

But before getting into that, this new concept made me think of another supply issue that is historically valid. What about Archer and missile units ? Do they carry unlimited ammo ? .. and does the Phalanx promotion protect against missile barrage ?

..

CONCEPT: Unit Supply

In ancient times, supplying food and other necessities of life was a real limit for civilizations and for armies in particular. It has often been said that an army can travel as far as its stomach will allow. PAE V has altered game play to reflect this hard fact.

1. Supply of Units:​
   • Each military unit consumes 1 Supply Point per turn.
   • Mounted units consume twice as much in deserts (ie 2 instead of 1).
   
   Q: Are Barbarians exempt from this rule ?
   
   
2. Cities:
   
   Cities provide only a certain number of units with food. One unit per pop can be supplied. Each additional unit consumes 0.5 food from food surplus. Excessive numbers of units in a city will result in a subtraction of Supply Points.​
   
   Q: Units that are within the workable tiles for a city are included within the consumption for the city ? or are they included only while garrisoned in the city ?
   
   
   In addition, there is a (Python) chance of 1:3 (33%) that one of these negative Events will occur:​
   
   Q: When speaking about a Python chance, is it calculated every turn ?
   
   
   • 20% chance: Units loose strength (20%), -1 pop in the city
   • 10% chance: Units loose strength (20%), a small disease occurs (not the great (plague))
   • 70% chance: a warning to the player pops up. The AI will withdraw troops out of the city or maybe won't (1:2 chance).
   
   
   Caution: If the city population decreases, it can cause severe disease (plague). The plague has a radius of 1. Besieging units should withdraw. Both the disease risk and the excessive number of units will display in the upset citizen icons of the PAE city status bar as part of the city window.​
   
   Q: Do Forts provide Supply Points ? I have used forts in many games of PAE. Sometimes they can be pretty remote when used as a way to secure that resource that's in a place where a city isn't an option .. sometimes they have a sizable garrison ..
   
   
   
3. ----- Supply Unit Enhancement (Supply Wagons, Druids, Brahmans)
   
   
   A supply unit can be used in addition to his work as a healer as supporter for large stacks (of more than 20 units). He has a capacity of 200 Support Points. When marking a stack the sum of all support points will appear as a bar in the main window.​
   
   Q: Is there a limit on supply units available ? If more than one supply unit occupies a spot, would the Support Points accumulate ? So, that two supply units would provide 400 Support Points ? Can a spy on the plot target this unit for assassination ? Can these units transport ships ? Does moving a ship reduce or negate Support Points ? .. and what about moving units by ship ? Does a ship provide Supply Points to an adjacent stack of units ? .. because resupply by ship was crucial to some ancient conflicts like Xerses' invasion into Greece ..?
   
   
4. Stack Damage:
   
   Without a supply unit, a stack suffers damage every turn:​
   • Infantry: 15% Damage
   • Cavalry: 20% Damage
   
   Q: Does this damage happen to every unit in the stack ? Or is is limited to unsupported units ? How come Calvary gets a worse effect than Infantry ? .. the effect could be even less for Calvary because in many landscapes, horses eat the foliage and can graze on the land ..
   
   
5. Recharging the supply unit:
   
   Recharging a supply unit is not a guaranteed Event. Chances of a susseful recharge are as follows:​
   
   
   • Own Territory 100%
   Q: Is this a guaranteed 100% ? Is there a chance that no recharge happens if the city is dissatisfied or in revolt ?
   • Vassal Territory: 40% (Python) chance
   Q: Regarless of Diplomatic Relationship? An unwilling and sujected population might not readily provide support for the conqueror's stack .. coversly, a happy and willing vassal would be more likely to be supportive ..
   • Delighted foreign terrain: 30% (Python) chance
   • Friendly foreign terrain: 20% (Python) chance
   • Cautious foreign terrain: 10% (Python) chance
   • All other foreign terrain: 0% (Python) chance
   
   
   If the chance of recharge was successful, the rate of recharge depends upon the tile:​
   • City: +50
   • Country: +20
   
   Q: If the population is starving, might the recharge be less than a maximum per turn rate ?
   
   
   Hostile terrain (improvements and yields of the tile may get 'siezed" by the stack. The recharge rate is as follows:​
   
   Q: I think this should/could happen in all territories. I think that the Leadership promotion should have some effect of not seizing the tile while moving over 'friendly territory'. We have all read accounts that describe how a hungry army is like having locusts on the land. Armies on the march were often accused of bringing devastation to the lands they moved across. This devastation happened to friend and foe alike ..
   
   
   • Farm (Irrigated): +30
   • Farm (Unirrigated): +20
   • Irrigation Canals: +40
   • Well or Oasis: +30
   • River: +20
   
   
   Unclaimed territory:​
   • Oasis: +30
   • River: +20
   
   Q: Is this a guaranteed Event ? Is there always a predictable recharge rate ? Also what about improvement that are found on unclaimed territory ?

 

[Keinpferd]

What about Archer and missile units ? Do they carry unlimited ammo ? .. and does the Phalanx promotion protect against missile barrage ?

Interesting.

While trying to digest this change to game play, I have taken Keinpferd's post and reorganized/reworded it

Lately I found that Google Translator is getting better and better, at least telling you the basic thoughts despite some funny grammar somersaults. The main purpose of my posting was to keep everyone updated. I only changed some obvious traps of ambiguity and misinterpretation (and hopefully not adding too many new ones…). For example, Versorgungseinheit google-translates to 'supply unit', when Pie is talking of 'supply points'.
Thanks to moundraken, we're having not only a translation but a basis for discussion now. He's fully right calling the supply stuff important game concepts. I mean, we're not talking about a nice, but pure flavour ethnical general's names list here but a mod feature, which addresses a major source of unrealism, annoyance and gameyness in BTS. Why was it that stack of dooms can linger in enemy territory for centuries? There are so many examples in history to prove the importance of logistics. Cut off supply lines have won wars no less than strategic brilliance or chivalry. Let's say, the Carthaginians in Sicily during the First Punic War: After they lost their fleet in several naval battles, they could no longer support their forces in Sicily and thus had to give up that island, which lead to the end of the war.

mourndraken, I leave answering your questions to Pie. This is just what I was thinking when browsing through them:

Q: Are Barbarians exempt from this rule ?


They should, shouldn't they?

Q: Units that are within the workable tiles for a city are included within the consumption for the city ? or are they included only while garrisoned in the city ?

I'm understanding, the food in the fat cross of a city goes into the calculation.

Q: Do Forts provide Supply Points ? I have used forts in many games of PAE. Sometimes they can be pretty remote when used as a way to secure that resource that's in a place where a city isn't an option .. sometimes they have a sizable garrison ..


I hope, Forts are going to play a role!


Q: Does a ship provide Supply Points to an adjacent stack of units ? .. because resupply by ship was crucial to some ancient conflicts like Xerses' invasion into Greece ..?


If that was doable (adjacent stack), I would be much in support of this!


Q: .. the effect could be even less for Calvary because in many landscapes, horses eat the foliage and can graze on the land ..


If you go that much into detail, I guess, horses are happiest on grass tiles near rivers.

Q: Regarless of Diplomatic Relationship? An unwilling and sujected population might not readily provide support for the conqueror's stack .. coversly, a happy and willing vassal would be more likely to be supportive ..

That's a good point too. An unhappy population might not give a schiss when their leader asks them to be hospitable to an allied army, regardless of the diplo relation of their leader to that allied leader.

Q: I think this should/could happen in all territories. I think that the Leadership promotion should have some effect of not seizing the tile while moving over 'friendly territory'. We have all read accounts that describe how a hungry army is like having locusts on the land. Armies on the march were often accused of bringing devastation to the lands they moved across. This devastation happened to friend and foe alike ..


Locusts: true, but probably no fun gameplaywise, if you have to rebuild your stuff each time you're sending a big stack to war.

Q: Also what about improvement that are found on unclaimed territory ?

Right, unclaimed food should be edible, too.

 

[mourndraken]

Q: I think this should/could happen in all territories. I think that the Leadership promotion should have some effect of not seizing the tile while moving over 'friendly territory'. We have all read accounts that describe how a hungry army is like having locusts on the land. Armies on the march were often accused of bringing devastation to the lands they moved across. This devastation happened to friend and foe alike ..


Locusts: true, but probably no fun gameplaywise, if you have to rebuild your stuff each time you're sending a big stack to war.

It's not a pillage improvement action that a unit can perform. The Stack doesn't destroy the improvement, just denies the nearby city. From what I understand, the stack seizes the production of the tile during a turn where a recharge occurs. So if the improvements are not destroyed, just seized .. could cause unexpected shortages to the lands through which a stack passes. A diplomatic hit could sometimes happen .. 'your horses ate my garden!' kind of thing .. Also, an army on the march could cause local governors to ask for gold ..

During a war, one can use a 'burnt-earth' strategy and destroy all improvement ahead of an invading stack.

I also think that Hamlets, Villages, and Towns ought to provide Supply Points.
edit - Wineries, Pastures, Plantations and Mills too !

 

[mourndraken]

How about a new job option for the Merchant unit ? They could plant supplies along the Stack's route ? Merchants could become an immobile and invisible object called a Cache ; gives a certain amount of Supply Points, then is consumed ? Cache might get discovered, like a Spy can get outed ? A discovered Cache could add some food to the nearby city. Similar to the hunting a wild critter ?

 

[mourndraken]

Q: .. the effect could be even less for Calvary because in many landscapes, horses eat the foliage and can graze on the land ..


If you go that much into detail, I guess, horses are happiest on grass tiles near rivers.

There is a promotion that allows the unit to use enemy roads. How about a level 2 for that ability and make a promotion that allows the unit to live off the land and not count towards the stack's consumption ?

 

[mourndraken]

Q: Regarless of Diplomatic Relationship? An unwilling and sujected population might not readily provide support for the conqueror's stack .. coversly, a happy and willing vassal would be more likely to be supportive ..

That's a good point too. An unhappy population might not give a schiss when their leader asks them to be hospitable to an allied army, regardless of the diplo relation of their leader to that allied leader.

Stashing their schiss until the hungry hoard passes by ..