Playing Askia

[The Pilgrim]

they lose those bonuses on upgrading to cav so they become the same as any other cav. the fact that you used them heavily for a time and got them promos is the only thing theyll have vs making new cav.

And amphibious promotion as well. But that's silly to judge UU only based on what features carry over upon upgrade. Using the same logic one might say (actually, someone did ) that keshiks suck because they loose all their perks when upgraded. I'll even go further - keshik suck more than manducavs, the latter at least keep terrain promos.

 

[Hammer Rabbi]

i dont have a dog in this fight. i was just clarifying what he said about what you said about cavs.

 

[pkf]

And amphibious promotion as well. But that's silly to judge UU only based on what features carry over upon upgrade. Using the same logic one might say (actually, someone did ) that keshiks suck because they loose all their perks when upgraded. I'll even go further - keshik suck more than manducavs, the latter at least keep terrain promos.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

 

[steveg700]

And amphibious promotion as well. But that's silly to judge UU only based on what features carry over upon upgrade.

Well, I didn't judge it only that, in point of fact. I laid out an entire case against it. Come to think of it, I laid out my case twice, mate.

And of course, upgrade paths for a unique unit are a major consideration.

I've been playing Songhai a lot lately, but all the same with the various folks defending them (and no support on my end), I thought I might be judging them too harshly. Maybe they work great, topple cities like dominos, and I was just too conservative in using them. So, I loaded up an old game and decided to throw five Mandys at a city, no holds barred.

http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/559843377765945717/9CB528B3ABBAD5414C6FDF759BE8B6856059A9E9/
Here they are preparing for their first salvo. Note that by the time I'm ready to attack, there's an Incan knight standing where one of my Mandys used to be. But ah well, I still have four mighty Mandys attacking without the standard-issue -33% shaft. Surely that will do the job, Especially when we consider that projected damage output in the left-hand corner there. I doubt Cusco could take more than ten or twelve more hits like that before folding up like a lawn chari.

http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/559843377766114129/0AB41C914E22110B697A2CBCA537D4221C4F9CBF/
Here they are after giving it all they got.

http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/559843377768470171/B41A5D84BFBAF0F92F75D30A8563725A2EB3914A/
This is after a second round of smashing their faces into the city. Sticking around means death for one unit, minimum. It doesn't look a war of attrition will go in the Mandys favor.

At the end of the day, I'd just as soon have had longswordmen who were able to fortify and receive those defensive terrain benefits, and in that capacity act as screens for ranged units.

They really needed to retain that +25% bonus they had.

 

[smallfish]

The only thing I'm seeing in those shots is a lack of siege units to back up the cavs

 

[The Pilgrim]

Well, I didn't judge it only that, in point of fact. I laid out an entire case against it. Come to think of it, I laid out my case twice, mate.

Not really, you don't take into consideration opportunity cost, they can do a lot of damage during their time and bring in a lot of money. The fact that you haven't managed to achieve that, doesn't mean it's impossible.
Note, I never said they are fantastic. Just that they are decent and not as bad as I thought they were before I tried them myself recently.

And of course, upgrade paths for a unique unit are a major consideration.

Nobody will argue with that. But there are many units that lost advantages upon upgrade and still remain beasts (which manducavs aren't) during their time.

I've been playing Songhai a lot lately, but all the same with the various folks defending them (and no support on my end), I thought I might be judging them too harshly. Maybe they work great, topple cities like dominos, and I was just too conservative in using them.

They aren't great, but they do work if you use them properly. If what you describe was true, they would've been OP, don't you think?

So, I loaded up an old game and decided to throw five Mandys at a city, no holds barred.

http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/559843377765945717/9CB528B3ABBAD5414C6FDF759BE8B6856059A9E9/
Here they are preparing for their first salvo. Note that by the time I'm ready to attack, there's an Incan knight standing where one of my Mandys used to be. But ah well, I still have four mighty Mandys attacking without the standard-issue -33% shaft. Surely that will do the job, Especially when we consider that projected damage output in the left-hand corner there. I doubt Cusco could take more than ten or twelve more hits like that before folding up like a lawn chari.

http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/559843377766114129/0AB41C914E22110B697A2CBCA537D4221C4F9CBF/
Here they are after giving it all they got.

http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/559843377768470171/B41A5D84BFBAF0F92F75D30A8563725A2EB3914A/
This is after a second round of smashing their faces into the city. Sticking around means death for one unit, minimum. It doesn't look a war of attrition will go in the Mandys favor.

Now all you need to do is to double their amount and start attacking 80-90 turns earlier. It's not their fault you go offensive with 5 knights and some CB's at 180's against GW.

These are SS of 'no ranged challenge'. I attacked Babylon at ~100 which is not super early. Took Dur-Kurigalzu and Babylon, liberated Singapore, after Akkad I got Edrine and clear path to Istanbul in a peace deal. Nabby had lots of pikes, so the whole campaign was somewhat long. But Istanbul will fall in 6-8 turns, they have only one additional city to the north, and then I will proceed to Persia and the last civ I haven't met yet. At the same time I'm amassing second army which will try to go through Dutch lands. It's mainly hills and mountains so it's gonna be somewhat painful. I might need to wait for cavalry at least to take down core cities.




At first it's not easy to capture cities just with manducavs without support of siege/range. But if you have enough of them and can rotate so you don't loose any, they'll gain promotions very fast. With march, they become unstoppable. Now you'll say again that plain knights are the same, but they are not. Manducavs are more effective due to their unique perks.

 

[steveg700]

The only thing I'm seeing in those shots is a lack of siege units to back up the cavs

Well, if that's all you're seeing, then you're being reductive. See, the presence of siege engines or the lack thereof was pretty central to my multiple explanations as to why the mandy aren't that great. If the siege engines were present, the mandys would be supporting them, not vice versa. The ranged units actually do the heavy lifting.

Not really, you don't take into consideration opportunity cost, they can do a lot of damage during their time and bring in a lot of money. The fact that you haven't managed to achieve that, doesn't mean it's impossible.
Note, I never said they are fantastic. Just that they are decent and not as bad as I thought they were before I tried them myself recently.


Nobody will argue with that. But there are many units that lost advantages upon upgrade and still remain beasts (which manducavs aren't) during their time.


They aren't great, but they do work if you use them properly.

Well, we can at least both agre they're not great. That's sufficient common ground.

 

[smallfish]

Well, if that's all you're seeing, then you're being reductive. See, the presence of siege engines or the lack thereof was pretty central to my multiple explanations as to why the mandy aren't that great. If the siege engines were present, the mandys would be supporting them, not vice versa. The ranged units actually do the heavy lifting.

Tis not a great example because this is a Great Wall opponent and the Inkans with their ridiculous Andean roads. The siege engines being supported? They will be the ones to knock off the meat of that city walls, but all the work will be mainly done by your cavs. Pilgrim gave a great example as to the amount of cavs to bring if you are just going to rely on them only (and no Great General)

That and if you were having such a hard time with Inkan Knights, why didn't you pillage that horse tile?

e: some food for thought

Spoiler :

 

[tetley]

Here is what's working for me so far on Raging Barbs, Promotion saving: in the early game, get Chariot Archers instead of Composites, without Barracks. These guys pop barbs very well. Save the promotions. When the chance comes to upgrade, do so and take the promos. Now you get lvl 3 cavs with useful promotions. (in case you don't already know the reason for promo saving, it's because the archer promotions give bonuses to ranged combat strength, and they are rendered useless when you upgrade them to melee units)

This lets you take advantage of the UU during its full lifespan, before it goes obsolete. It also gives you options: you can use a +50hp promo if you need it to save a unit and/or put a city over the edge and take it. And if you're facing Pikes, you can just not upgrade and stick with Chariots (but don't like the Pikes hit you back--they can one-shot kill Chariot Archers).

 

[smallfish]

At the end of the day, I'd just as soon have had longswordmen who were able to fortify and receive those defensive terrain benefits, and in that capacity act as screens for ranged units.

Longswords are great stuff, btw. The problem with them, unlike melee Knight units like the Mande and Elephants, is that they can't get out of a city fast enough. If you've just taken a city with a Longsword rush and the enemy has some catapults and a fast mover of his own behind, well, say good bye to that Longsword come next turn.

With Knight cavs like the Mande, you could force your enemy to be the ones wasting their hammers since they can move out of the city after taking it. And they are downright brutal towards stuff like composite bows out in the open

 

[steveg700]

Tis not a great example because...

This is why most folks don't bother to provide examples. Because even once you do, inevitably someone always tries to find some detail that negates the example. So, empty conjecture seems to be more effcient.

The Great Wall has little to do with this. That the Mandys don't hit hard enough is the example. If I'd done it 80 turns earlier, as I'd been advised, Cusco would have had a couple points less strength, so I'm struggling to see how that would have dramatically changed the output.

That and if you were having such a hard time with Inkan Knights, why didn't you pillage that horse tile?

The knight wasn't giving me a hard time. It was the Oligarchy-boosted city that could virtually one-shot the cav's. Like I said, this was an old game I loaded to see how it performed trying to blitz a city. Pillaging one tile, again, is not a game-changer. The cav's simply couldn't perform.

Having said all that, I confess that I didn't realize the Mandy's were actually slightly cheaper than regular cav. 10 hammers isn't much, but credit must be given where credit is due.

 

[The Pilgrim]

This is why most folks don't bother to provide examples. Because even once you do, inevitably someone always tries to find some detail that negates the example. So, empty conjecture seems to more effcient.

I provided you an example. Here is more of the same. Feel free to find some details to negate it. I don't mind.

 

[Mesix]

I played Askia recently thinking that the UB would be a benefit for a cultural victory. It turned out to be one of the longest, most drawn out games I've played in awhile. It took me 3 days to finish it, and it was a relatively peaceful game. It was the only cultural victory I can remember where I made it to the Atomic Age. I almost got to the point where Sydney Opera House could have been used for my last policy (if I had a GE to rush it it could have been). I'm sure I could have played it better.

 

[The Pilgrim]

I played Askia recently thinking that the UB would be a benefit for a cultural victory. It turned out to be one of the longest, most drawn out games I've played in awhile. It took me 3 days to finish it, and it was a relatively peaceful game. It was the only cultural victory I can remember where I made it to the Atomic Age. I almost got to the point where Sydney Opera House could have been used for my last policy (if I had a GE to rush it it could have been). I'm sure I could have played it better.

Next you should try to go for CV with Mongols.

 

[prince_caspian]

What a long while it has been!

I think Askia has pretty synergistic traits. It's easy to get 400 to 600 gold average on taking a city and you can use that to buy mandecavs (cost 460 I think) or anything for an unstoppable rampage. The triple gold jump starts things quickly. Amphibious - well people can argue till the world ends that it's meh, but it's definitely better than not having any. Come to think of it, people tend to disregard traits that have a negative like "unhappiness" (*cough*India*cough) and "no penalty". That's pretty much the point of it.