Playing or (losing) in the European Market

[JOHNMAN]

Haven't seen anything posted yet about the markets however they definately need to be fixed. Last 3 games I have played silver dropped to 1 while I was trading it in and never recovered, ridiculous. Understandibly if you trade a bunch of it and the price would drop but if you stop trading it in then it should recover. Last game I played just AI natives so it wasn't that an other european ai player was influencing the market. Silver on the market should definately be more stable and in demand anyway. Hope when the patch comes out they tweak it as now it seems like nothing else but a way to cripple the player.

Also, curious; why isn't there gold?

 

[nate895]

Haven't seen anything posted yet about the markets however they definately need to be fixed. Last 3 games I have played silver dropped to 1 while I was trading it in and never recovered, ridiculous. Understandibly if you trade a bunch of it and the price would drop but if you stop trading it in then it should recover. Last game I played just AI natives so it wasn't that an other european ai player was influencing the market. Silver on the market should definately be more stable and in demand anyway. Hope when the patch comes out they tweak it as now it seems like nothing else but a way to cripple the player.

Also, curious; why isn't there gold?

Gold=money. Why do you need to trade money for money? It is much more simple to just mint it into your own coins.

Edit: As for silver, I have similar problems, but no so drastic as you.

 

[Refar]

The only way to make prices recover is to buy stuff again. (I know it's pointless).

Here's a thread by Misterslak detailing the price mechanics.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=292862
All prices will eventually drop to 1 and never recover (If you play/trade long enought). Silver is by far the most unstable trade good in this respect.

 

[nate895]

The only way to make prices recover is to buy stuff again. (I know it's pointless).

Here's a thread by Misterslak detailing the price mechanics.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=292862
All prices will eventually drop to 1 and never recover (If you play/trade long enought). Silver is by far the most unstable trade good in this respect.

That is very realistic, if you follow the commodity market as I do, you'd know silver is much less stable than gold, and can sometimes sometimes fluctuate 20% in a single day of trading.

 

[dalgo]

Silver is a short term resource. Build a mining colony to make quick money while the price is high then either switch to something else or give the colony away. It was the same in the original game except sometimes the silver mine itself ran out as well.

If you play as the Dutch the price holds up longer.

 

[Shylock]

Yep, just get a few galleons together and drop a silver bomb.

You'll probably be set for the rest of the game if you fill a few up.

 

[Refar]

Don't tell me it's realistic fpr a price to drop and never recover because one colony dropped say 3 shiploads of it over a period of 100 Years in Europe.

Even if it might have some relevance to silver. What is about Coats ? Rum ? Cigars ?
Does the stuff not get used up / drunk / smoked over time ?
Because it is how it works now. The first shipload (and second/third/... short every) of any good you sold there sticks forever with the price never recovering. So obviously the stuff never gets used.

This might be needed for game balance, but it is certainly not realistic.

Overall the game oddly only models half of the market - The Americas. What is with the other side ?
The demand (or maybe supply) created in Europe - does not have any effect on the Price - while it clearly should.

Sinc ethe game does not have any model for European Economy, the best IMHO and closest to "realistic" approach would be to make the Prices fluctuate Randomly within bounds with perhaps a short term bias from players actions.
(Random Numbers coming out of the Black Box = European Economy)

 

[dalgo]

At least the prices don't drop to zero as they sometimes did in Col1. But then I could trick the king by avoiding tax rises so while the prices were dropping at least I wasn't paying any tax. Here I can't avoid tax but at least the prices are much more stable.

 

[nate895]

Don't tell me it's realistic fpr a price to drop and never recover because one colony dropped say 3 shiploads of it over a period of 100 Years in Europe.

Even if it might have some relevance to silver. What is about Coats ? Rum ? Cigars ?
Does the stuff not get used up / drunk / smoked over time ?
Because it is how it works now. The first shipload (and second/third/... short every) of any good you sold there sticks forever with the price never recovering. So obviously the stuff never gets used.

This might be needed for game balance, but it is certainly not realistic.

Overall the game oddly only models half of the market - The Americas. What is with the other side ?
The demand (or maybe supply) created in Europe - does not have any effect on the Price - while it clearly should.

Sinc ethe game does not have any model for European Economy, the best IMHO and closest to "realistic" approach would be to make the Prices fluctuate Randomly within bounds with perhaps a short term bias from players actions.
(Random Numbers coming out of the Black Box = European Economy)

I should have noted that I was talking about silver being the most instable.

 

[SerriaFox]

Silver is a money equivalent (esp in the time frame), which means if you dump alot of it into the ecomony without other goods being added it lead to inflation.
Having the price of silver drop fast is one way of showing that inflation.

However Not Having it Recover is just plain BAD

 

[Refar]

I should have noted that I was talking about silver being the most instable.

Oh, sorry, then i in fact got you wrong.

Some prices being less stable than other (or veeery instable like silver) is fine.
Some - limited - permanent loss of value might be ok too.
Prices droping to 1 and never recovering is the problem.

 

[nate895]

Oh, sorry, then i in fact got you wrong.

Some prices being less stable than other (or veeery instable like silver) is fine.
Some - limited - permanent loss of value might be ok too.
Prices droping to 1 and never recovering is the problem.

Yes, that is a problem that needs to be addressed.

 

[historix69]

I think it shouldn't be to difficult to implement a more realistic simulation of economy based on population, demand and supply ... Good examples can be found in some German Trade Simulations like "The Patrician" I+II or "Port Royal" I+II by Ascaron.

At the moment, the game is treating Europe more like an infinite Reservoir ... You can buy any number of goods without having the prices change during a turn ... the same applies for selling goods ...

Imagine ... you sail into harbor with your treasure fleet ... galleons loaded with hundreds of tons of silver ... in reality the prices would drop immediately as soon as the enormous treasure gets known ... traders would not dare to pay you much for the silver since they know that market will collaps ... so the knowledge of the treasure fleet alone will already force prices to fall ...

In sense of trade-simulation, even if the economic system is not based on supply and demand, the stored number of traded goods which influences the prices should decay over time ...

On the other side I think that the unrealistic trade concept was done on purpose ... High School of Game Design ... the Game is designed to keep you in movement ...

- You can build crosses to get colonists from Europe, but the costs for each new colonist increase until it is no longer worth ...
- You can build universities to train your colonists, but the costs for each new colonist increase until it is no longer worth ...
- You can produce goods to trade with Europe, but the prices will fall until it is no longer worth ... (and taxes will rise, threatening your most traded goods with boycott ... all based on your trade)
- You can buy units in Europe, but the costs for each new unit increase until it is no longer worth ...
- You can produce bells in your cities to raise rebel sentiment, but due to decay of rebel sentiment, the percentage will raise slower and slower ...

I just wonder why they did not use the progressive system for Food-costs for new population and hiring costs for European specialist, too ...
... and for the equipment costs of tools, horses, guns for pioneer, soldier, dragoon ... (e.g. see "Rise of Nations" by Brian reynolds as extreme example of progressive costs)

The game seems to be designed to force the player to not rely too much on a special feature and to not overuse it by making the benefits of all features kind of depleting (using up) when overused ... a market with recovering prices does not seem to fit in this game concept.

Civ4Col (unfortunately) is rather a DESIGNER GAME (like a Card Game) than a simulation of colonial history or colonial trade ...