westamastaflash
Lord Commander
- Joined
- Nov 1, 2007
- Messages
- 933
No I'm just a ******.
playtest feedback
- Thread starter davidlallen
- Start date
davidlallen
Deity
Thanks for the feedback.
What exact change did you make for fuel trucks? Did you give them *both* counter and city defense, or only counter? Looking at your screenies, I would almost rather have a few gas trucks in non-fuel-using stacks, rather than a big stack of trucks sitting idle in a city. So I will try it.
In the two or three full games I played manually with 0.8, I did not see decay happening that fast. Some, but not too much. It is helpful to collect more feedback on that.
I can think of a few things to tweak about the vision victory.
A capitol might be founded when the civ already has a previous state vision. If this happens, the founding civ should switch to this vision. They went to the trouble of building the capitol, at least they should use it. That will cause the previous state vision to decay everywhere inside the civ. That should be pretty easy to change, and it looks like this was a top issue of yours.
When a capitol is destroyed, it should start to decay everywhere. That is harder to change with the current code, but it shouldn't be impossible.
When a civ with a capitol, capitulates or voluntarily becomes a vassal, you could say its capitol should be destroyed leading to decay of its vision. I am not so sure that is the right approach, you could argue that the master civ should have to exert influence to get the vassal to switch visions first.
What exact change did you make for fuel trucks? Did you give them *both* counter and city defense, or only counter? Looking at your screenies, I would almost rather have a few gas trucks in non-fuel-using stacks, rather than a big stack of trucks sitting idle in a city. So I will try it.
In the two or three full games I played manually with 0.8, I did not see decay happening that fast. Some, but not too much. It is helpful to collect more feedback on that.
I can think of a few things to tweak about the vision victory.
A capitol might be founded when the civ already has a previous state vision. If this happens, the founding civ should switch to this vision. They went to the trouble of building the capitol, at least they should use it. That will cause the previous state vision to decay everywhere inside the civ. That should be pretty easy to change, and it looks like this was a top issue of yours.
When a capitol is destroyed, it should start to decay everywhere. That is harder to change with the current code, but it shouldn't be impossible.
When a civ with a capitol, capitulates or voluntarily becomes a vassal, you could say its capitol should be destroyed leading to decay of its vision. I am not so sure that is the right approach, you could argue that the master civ should have to exert influence to get the vassal to switch visions first.
Refar
Deity
- Joined
- Apr 10, 2005
- Messages
- 4,608
Yes i was thinking along the same lines
I gave it COUNTER only - as Default AI and and in the possible AI's list.
Sounds interesting. And yes i think the Dacaying of the Capitol was the most troubling thing.
With the rest the circumstances on the map played a role in my loss.
westamastaflash
Lord Commander
- Joined
- Nov 1, 2007
- Messages
- 933
The Jeep unit is pretty worthless now.
I've got cities pumping out 2 Experience 7 Ute's for 60 hammers each vs 1 Exp 7 Jeep for 120 hammers.
With my Ute I immediately get to have Road Warrior I and Weapon Mount, for a net Strength of 17.50 (a bit less in forest, hill, jungle).
With a Jeep I get Combat I and Combat II, yielding a net strength of 18.2.
So what's the point of spending 2x the hammers for a unit that's only a bit stronger, and requires me to refuel it...
Oh and Jeeps don't get defensive bonuses either...
I've got cities pumping out 2 Experience 7 Ute's for 60 hammers each vs 1 Exp 7 Jeep for 120 hammers.
With my Ute I immediately get to have Road Warrior I and Weapon Mount, for a net Strength of 17.50 (a bit less in forest, hill, jungle).
With a Jeep I get Combat I and Combat II, yielding a net strength of 18.2.
So what's the point of spending 2x the hammers for a unit that's only a bit stronger, and requires me to refuel it...
Oh and Jeeps don't get defensive bonuses either...
davidlallen
Deity
Interesting point. I buffed the ute from strength 8 to strength 10 in version 0.8. If I reverse that, it is a 20% decrease, putting its strength back to 14 in your case vs 18 for the jeep. So, I guess this was still a problem even before the buff, but now I agree it is more of a problem.
There are two obvious solutions: raise jeep strength, decrease jeep cost. What is the right threshold?
There are two obvious solutions: raise jeep strength, decrease jeep cost. What is the right threshold?
davidlallen
Deity
btw: thanks for making this mod. i just started to beta test this one two days ago, and i must say i like it
comment: can you explain the map script, and maybe perhaps release a couple more that are different?
Thanks for the feedback. There is a description of the mapscript algorithm in the old thread at this post. Do you have a specific question?
What sorts of things would you like to see on "more different" maps? One playtester has suggested a scenario which is based on the real map of Australia, which is always possible.
davidlallen
Deity
refar said:
I have locally changed this, so that upon building a capitol, the AI player automatically converts to it. So far I have only played one game with this change, but it seems to make it a real struggle to keep momentum for a vision victory. I assume it will be just as unpleasant for the AI player as it was for me
If you are interested in making this local change to see what difference it makes, replace the function onBuildingBuilt in Assets/Python/CvFuryRoadEvents.py with the following. I have added two lines, the rest is the same.
Spoiler :
countjackula
Chieftain
Many improvements since I last played at patch .06. It was cool to see new graphics and game mechanics in play.
- new guardian graphic is sweet. Same goes for the new UTE and the crossbowman hanging out the passenger side, barbed wire fences, safety for culture (nice icon), broadcast wonder, etc are good additions.
- new leaderhead for Peter is excellent.
- seem to have gotten a better start than many others in .05 & .06, although I'm still just on my first game in patch .08
- I have less fuel truck spam than before so I'm not deleting an endless stream of them now.
- I like the new refueling mechanic, and I'm still managing to stay supplied in fuel with relative ease so I don't feel hampered by any reduction.
- I like not having to pollute my cities with a refinery building, so the refinery change is a welcomed one.
- Less radiation as everyone isn't getting a stream of nukes. Missiles still get launched but I would expect to see post-apocalyptic civs less willing to drop radioactive missiles. This change makes sense.
- The barbarian animals seem to move much faster and hit harder than I remember, and stay in the game longer than before. They actually lasted longer than the human barbs this time. A couple of workers, scouts, and missionaries became lunch fast as rad scorpions zoomed in out of nowhere. As such, I'm using more escorts now.
- I'm also actually using more units in between guardians and tanks. I barely touched the in-betweeners before. It feels more like I am playing as intended.
- this version is much more polished. All around, great job!
In my current game I am having one problem. I can't seem to obtain a vision victory. My problem isn't in spreading my vision. I was able to get a head start on most civs and quickly expanded my vision. After getting Brotherhood of Steel into Debbie's two cities, she abandoned the vision she founded and switched. Most of my neighbors didn't have any vision yet, so they quickly adopted BoS after converting only one or two of their cities. There were two more civs with opposing visions, but only one of them remains and I have BoS in all of his cities.
However, there seems to be a bug. 83% of the world follows BoS (my vision). I have gotten BoS into every city on the map, and 5 out of the 6 remaining civs have their state vision set to BoS. The bug is that I haven't gotten a vision victory. My victory conditions menu says I should get a vision victory at 67%. When I first hit 25% of the world believing in BoS, a pop-up said at 75% I would get a vision victory. The difference in numbers confuses me. More so, I'm confused as to why I haven't gotten a victory by now. 83% is higher than either of those numbers. Is this is a bug?
In case it makes a difference, I am playing as Halloween Jane/House of Usher. What gives? Am I trying to spread the wrong vision for my civ? It seemed like I should be able to pick any one and just go for it.
Edit:
Even with 94% of the world following BoS, and all 6 remaining civs with BoS as their declared state vision I haven't gotten a vision victory.
- new guardian graphic is sweet. Same goes for the new UTE and the crossbowman hanging out the passenger side, barbed wire fences, safety for culture (nice icon), broadcast wonder, etc are good additions.
- new leaderhead for Peter is excellent.
- seem to have gotten a better start than many others in .05 & .06, although I'm still just on my first game in patch .08
- I have less fuel truck spam than before so I'm not deleting an endless stream of them now.
- I like the new refueling mechanic, and I'm still managing to stay supplied in fuel with relative ease so I don't feel hampered by any reduction.
- I like not having to pollute my cities with a refinery building, so the refinery change is a welcomed one.
- Less radiation as everyone isn't getting a stream of nukes. Missiles still get launched but I would expect to see post-apocalyptic civs less willing to drop radioactive missiles. This change makes sense.
- The barbarian animals seem to move much faster and hit harder than I remember, and stay in the game longer than before. They actually lasted longer than the human barbs this time. A couple of workers, scouts, and missionaries became lunch fast as rad scorpions zoomed in out of nowhere. As such, I'm using more escorts now.
- I'm also actually using more units in between guardians and tanks. I barely touched the in-betweeners before. It feels more like I am playing as intended.
- this version is much more polished. All around, great job!
In my current game I am having one problem. I can't seem to obtain a vision victory. My problem isn't in spreading my vision. I was able to get a head start on most civs and quickly expanded my vision. After getting Brotherhood of Steel into Debbie's two cities, she abandoned the vision she founded and switched. Most of my neighbors didn't have any vision yet, so they quickly adopted BoS after converting only one or two of their cities. There were two more civs with opposing visions, but only one of them remains and I have BoS in all of his cities.
However, there seems to be a bug. 83% of the world follows BoS (my vision). I have gotten BoS into every city on the map, and 5 out of the 6 remaining civs have their state vision set to BoS. The bug is that I haven't gotten a vision victory. My victory conditions menu says I should get a vision victory at 67%. When I first hit 25% of the world believing in BoS, a pop-up said at 75% I would get a vision victory. The difference in numbers confuses me. More so, I'm confused as to why I haven't gotten a victory by now. 83% is higher than either of those numbers. Is this is a bug?
In case it makes a difference, I am playing as Halloween Jane/House of Usher. What gives? Am I trying to spread the wrong vision for my civ? It seemed like I should be able to pick any one and just go for it.
Edit:
Even with 94% of the world following BoS, and all 6 remaining civs with BoS as their declared state vision I haven't gotten a vision victory.
davidlallen
Deity
I am glad to know that the tuning we have done is in the right direction. It is always a possibility that we wind up with two divergent "user bases" who want different things, so far that is not happening.
Regarding the animals, I have not made any changes. In some games the punks and animals bother me more than other games. Animals spawn in ruins and fallout, so perhaps this time you had more of those around your starting location.
Regarding the vision victory, first, the main problem that came up in 0.6 and 0.7 was that it was too easy and came by surprise. So we have definitely gotten rid of that
The 75% value in the popup is wrong. The victory xml file says 67%, and that is the authority. The victory xml file also says 10 turns are required, and that "appears" to be causing some kind of problem. Or maybe, there is some other clause in the victory condition which is not being satisfied. In one or two of my games, I am pretty sure I hung onto 67% for ten turns and did not win, but on the other hand I did not actually count. In all of my games recently I have gotten up into the 60-65% range and then my percentage has gone down due to other capitols being founded.
The religious victory apparently has a few internal checks which are hard to understand, based on this thread where I learned about it. Upon re-reading the thread just now, I found one post which says at least five religions must be founded! I had not noticed that before. These victory conditions are inside the SDK somewhere, so I cannot adjust them.
Can you confirm that your game had less than 5 visions (religions)? Probably it did. If you have a late save game, maybe you can use WB to put in a couple of holy cities. I don't think the SDK will know to count capitols, but if you select the "edit city" tool you can mark some cities as holy cities. I assume that will "count". It could be that if you add some holy cities and then replay ten turns, you will win.
If that is the problem I am not sure exactly how to solve it. I have made a change locally to force a civ to convert to its own new religion when it founds a capitol. This makes it a *lot* harder to achieve a vision victory because everybody will build a capitol eventually. This will at least "dilute" your vision in their cities and your vision will also decay. It is possible I made it too hard now, especially if the five religion thing is really a requirement.
Regarding the animals, I have not made any changes. In some games the punks and animals bother me more than other games. Animals spawn in ruins and fallout, so perhaps this time you had more of those around your starting location.
Regarding the vision victory, first, the main problem that came up in 0.6 and 0.7 was that it was too easy and came by surprise. So we have definitely gotten rid of that
The 75% value in the popup is wrong. The victory xml file says 67%, and that is the authority. The victory xml file also says 10 turns are required, and that "appears" to be causing some kind of problem. Or maybe, there is some other clause in the victory condition which is not being satisfied. In one or two of my games, I am pretty sure I hung onto 67% for ten turns and did not win, but on the other hand I did not actually count. In all of my games recently I have gotten up into the 60-65% range and then my percentage has gone down due to other capitols being founded.
The religious victory apparently has a few internal checks which are hard to understand, based on this thread where I learned about it. Upon re-reading the thread just now, I found one post which says at least five religions must be founded! I had not noticed that before. These victory conditions are inside the SDK somewhere, so I cannot adjust them.
Can you confirm that your game had less than 5 visions (religions)? Probably it did. If you have a late save game, maybe you can use WB to put in a couple of holy cities. I don't think the SDK will know to count capitols, but if you select the "edit city" tool you can mark some cities as holy cities. I assume that will "count". It could be that if you add some holy cities and then replay ten turns, you will win.
If that is the problem I am not sure exactly how to solve it. I have made a change locally to force a civ to convert to its own new religion when it founds a capitol. This makes it a *lot* harder to achieve a vision victory because everybody will build a capitol eventually. This will at least "dilute" your vision in their cities and your vision will also decay. It is possible I made it too hard now, especially if the five religion thing is really a requirement.
countjackula
Chieftain
That must be the problem. Five visions were founded (tech, money, peace, anarchy, and my BoS) but I never did see the peace holy city. That vision just showed up in one of my towns, but I don't even know from who. Maybe that holy city got razed? I'll try editing that in with the WB to a city, and wait 10 turns to see if that works. If so, I will watch for that in the future and try to make sure holy cities don't get razed although sometimes that is out of the players control.
I will have to give it another try. I never intended to win via vision, but after it started to spread so easily and I got the pop up at 25% I thought I would try for it.
Either way, I still had fun and think Fury Road has gotten a lot more flavorful. Cheers!
I will have to give it another try. I never intended to win via vision, but after it started to spread so easily and I got the pop up at 25% I thought I would try for it.
Either way, I still had fun and think Fury Road has gotten a lot more flavorful. Cheers!
davidlallen
Deity
I do not know the details, but I think the requirement is that the religion must be *founded*, if its holy city is razed afterwards that does not matter. In vanilla, and earlier versions of this mod, religions are founded as a byproduct of techs which are guaranteed to be researched. So the condition that five religions must be founded is a no-brainer.
With the current version of fury road, it is not a no-brainer. 5 players building capitols might not happen very often. Some specific testing to verify this is in order.
With the current version of fury road, it is not a no-brainer. 5 players building capitols might not happen very often. Some specific testing to verify this is in order.
Refar
Deity
- Joined
- Apr 10, 2005
- Messages
- 4,608
Holy city is probably decayed, like in my game. And i hence i am also quite sure that Vision beeing founded is enought, no matter what happens to the holy city afterwards, since i lost that game to vision
I do however only remember 4 visions beeing founded in my game. Probably i missed one out, i will check, if i still have a autosave.
davidlallen
Deity
I have had my first adventure into reading the C++ SDK code for the game, to see what the religious victory conditions *really* are. I am not sure if I am more confused, or less confused. It seems the post I mentioned in the religious victory thread is completely wrong.
If you can read C code at all, take a look at the file which is included in the 3.17 BTS patch: <bts>/CvGameCoreDLL/CvGame.cpp, line 7014. In pseudocode, it says:
So, apart from the religious percentage, the only requirement is the number of cities count. It does not even seem that the 10 turn delay affects anything.
This fits with refar's recent victory loss. I had a game just now where I was sitting at 70% for a while, pretty early in the game, without winning. Then suddenly I won; it turns out in a 5 player game we had been sitting at 10 cities, and when the 11th city was founded I suddenly won. So that fits.
However, I am not sure this fits with countjackula's finding. Countjackula, can you confirm how many cities there were, compared to the number of players, when you were sitting there not winning? This is the only thing I can think of.
If we can fit countjackula's experience into this, then I am more confident I understand. I already have a 25% popup, and I have locally added a 50% popup. So I will take off the 10 turn delay which doesn't seem to do anything, and then try a few more games to make sure the only reason not to get a victory is the city count.
If countjackula's game where he wasn't winning, had a large number of cities, then I guess I am still missing something about the condition. I *feel* better, anyway, having looked into the C++ code.
If you can read C code at all, take a look at the file which is included in the 3.17 BTS patch: <bts>/CvGameCoreDLL/CvGame.cpp, line 7014. In pseudocode, it says:
Code:
for each team
if total number of cities > 2 * number of players alive
for each religion
if this team owns the holy city
if the religion percent of this religion is over the threshold
we have a winnerSo, apart from the religious percentage, the only requirement is the number of cities count. It does not even seem that the 10 turn delay affects anything.
This fits with refar's recent victory loss. I had a game just now where I was sitting at 70% for a while, pretty early in the game, without winning. Then suddenly I won; it turns out in a 5 player game we had been sitting at 10 cities, and when the 11th city was founded I suddenly won. So that fits.
However, I am not sure this fits with countjackula's finding. Countjackula, can you confirm how many cities there were, compared to the number of players, when you were sitting there not winning? This is the only thing I can think of.
If we can fit countjackula's experience into this, then I am more confident I understand. I already have a 25% popup, and I have locally added a 50% popup. So I will take off the 10 turn delay which doesn't seem to do anything, and then try a few more games to make sure the only reason not to get a victory is the city count.
If countjackula's game where he wasn't winning, had a large number of cities, then I guess I am still missing something about the condition. I *feel* better, anyway, having looked into the C++ code.
davidlallen
Deity
Even though the mapscript I started with is "pangaea", occasionally it generates islands. There are never ruins on islands, and there is no way to get units onto the islands.
Avahz Darkwood
Emperor
I have seen goody huts (bunkers?) on those section before.
countjackula
Chieftain
I only had 5 cities, so that explains it. There was myself and five AI players still alive. I would have needed thirteen or more ( > 2 * number of players alive) to meet all of the victory conditions. I had everything but the city count. Glad that has been cleared up.
davidlallen
Deity
That is the *total* number of cities, across all the players. If each AI has two cities, and you have three, that is enough to satisfy the limit. With 6 players total, if you had 5 and each of the other players only had one each, that would be 10 against 13 needed. If there were 13 cities total, then I am still confused about why you had not won.
countjackula
Chieftain
I was guessing that 13+ cities was the number I would have needed to win. I obviously didn't read the formula correctly. If that applies to total cities needed I am still confused too, but I'll give it another go.
I don't have a save anymore so I can't check total city numbers to verify actual amounts. I'll have to stop obsessively cleaning out my save folder so often.
Just to be clear on the formula, it is correct to say that any player can win a vision victory if:
a) they own the holy city of a vision
b) that vision has spread to 67%+ of the world
c) the total number of cities is greater than two times the number of players?
I don't have a save anymore so I can't check total city numbers to verify actual amounts. I'll have to stop obsessively cleaning out my save folder so often.
Just to be clear on the formula, it is correct to say that any player can win a vision victory if:
a) they own the holy city of a vision
b) that vision has spread to 67%+ of the world
c) the total number of cities is greater than two times the number of players?
