[NFP] POLL: Secret societies and the late game

[nzcamel]

Having just played the first era of an Ethiopian game with Secret Societies involved, I can't help but wonder if the devs have missed a beat by making SS a mode, rather than in the main game, and having them kick in from the beginning of the game, rather than later on.

There will be multiple reasons for why the late game can feel tedious, and a significant one is that the world is far more "locked in" with much less to explore and discover. Finding ways to make the late game interesting is something I hope is still a priority for the devs.

Yet here we are with SS coming at you strong out of the gate, flipping the gov promotion tree on its head by hitting you with extra governor promotions early, which is fine (if you want gov promotions to not be worth as much )... yet again, the early game is already great as it is. It doesn't need this extra bling! Why don't secret societies kick in in the latter half of the game when they could mix up what is a more stale situation and provide a freshness that is still lacking.

Hit me with your thoughts please.

 

[AriochIV]

I don't see why anyone should have a problem with SS being a mode instead of "in the main game." If you turn it on, it essentially IS in the main game. If you can't turn it off, I think a lot of people would have a problem with that.

It does feel a little bit weird from a narrative point of view that secret societies which have an 18th or 19th century flavor are appearing the Ancient era, but given the way they are implemented, they kind of have to be available early to have the kind of impact on the game which they evidently want, for something that's the one and only new feature of a fairly expensive DLC release. Most games are already decided by the time a more "realistic" secret society should probably appear.

 

[Kibikus]

I don't think the fact that they're a game mode is a problem. If you like them, you'll just leave them on. People that don't like them can turn them off. Given the fact that there are some fantasy elements involved, and we've seen some of the reactions to vampires, it's understandable why they did it this way.

For your second point, I haven't played enough with the SS yet to have a clear picture, but half of their promotions come in the late game. Especially the 3rd promotion seems to be quite powerful and game changing for most of them, so that should spice things up.

 

[acluewithout]

These are good questions to ask, but no, I think FXS took the right approach making these a game mode and having them more or less at the start of the game.

I do think you could have additional societies that only become available late game, but I’m not too fussed either way.

Instead, I think the bigger issues is around how the societies trigger / get spread and the lack of trade offs and or counters.

See below:

[T]he whole mechanism for triggering a Society and trade offs around having them seem really off.

Specifically:

• Getting a Secret Society. I'm not entirely sold on triggering Secret Societies via Goody Huts etc., but I guess it's okay. But I don't think multiple Civs should be able to trigger each Society that way. It just feels inevitable that you're going to get offers from every Society, and it isn't all that challenging given the triggers are so easy (albeit a bit RNG).

• I think maybe FXS should limit it to one Civ getting a Secret Society via Good Huts etc. Then, anyone else that wants that Society needs to do it via Diplomatic Visibility. That would make getting a Society initially a bit more competitive (because you have a rush to be the first one to get eg Void Singers), and then if you miss out getting a Society that way, you've got incentive to hunt among the other Civs for the one you want and then use Diplo Visibility to get the desired society. Otherwise, the current dynamic is to just keep banging Good Huts or Barbs all game long till you get the society you want, and that's just silly.
  
  
• Free Governor Titles. Getting additional free governor titles seems like a terrible idea - there's really just no trade off getting a Society at all, because you don't even have to use up your limited supply of existing Governor Titles. I'm even hearing stories of people getting four free titles! Oh Dear. No free titles, please. Or, if you have free titles, maybe only for the first person to discover the particular society.
  
  
• Trade-offs. Already discussed, but there's no real trade offs to Secret Societies, and that's kind of lame. Yeah, there's negative relationship penalties, but that's a very weak negative and only applies to AI Civs. I think there needs to be some sort of more general negative to the Societies that ramps up as you get promotions. It doesn't need to be anything crushing, but just something so you feel like there's some choice. It could be something just as simple as no Alliances with Civs that have a different Secret Society.
  
  
• Counters. I think there needs to be some sort of counters to Secret Societies. Currently, it's the same problem we had with Rock Bands, where there's just nothing proactive you can do against them. Again, I don't think we need anything major. But maybe Spy Missions that you can only run against Civs that have a different Secret Society to you; World Congress Resolutions that target Secret Societies; and or Policy Cards that give you additional combat bonuses etc. v Civs with Secret Socieites. I think the benefit of those counters would be players without Societies could use them freely, but so could Civs that have a Society but only against Civs with different Societies. Also, if Secret Societies had some good counters, I think that might even be enough of a "trade-off" by itself. Just a thought.

Anyway. The Game Mode is okay. But it's again a bit like Apocalypse Mode, where overall it's a cool idea, but the mechanics feel like they lack a little polish. It's basically the same situation as Red Death, which was and is a cracking idea, but just needed a bit more - and then, you know, we go Aliens, Zombies, and few more abilities, and touch more Sean Bean, and now that mode / scenario / whatever really is just 1000% times better.

I really hope Firaxis are open to revisiting these modes a little based on Feedback (@FXS_MisterKevin hint hint). I mean, I really hope so. There are some really good ideas here, they just need just a smidge more polish.

[F]ree titles are a problem. First, extra titles early is just too powerful. Second, having extra titles to get your secret societies going really undercuts any trade off / interesting decisions. I’m sure it was done so new players could easily dive into the new Mechanic and play with it, but it just makes it too easy.

I’m really not a huge fan of the triggers for secret societies. I get that they were probably chosen to help encourage playing the map, but they feel a bit silly and uninspired. You also just need so little investment to get a secret society.

I’d rather have the trigger for secret societies tied to building Wonders and or recruiting great people, and make which Secret Society you unlock also random. ie you have a random chance of revealing a society if you build a wonder or recruit a great person, and if you succeed, the society revealed is also random. I’d also still limit that Mechanic to one Civ per Society, with everyone else then needing to use Diplo Vision. Overall, it would maybe make secret societies a bit less map dependent, but it would mean you had to invest more to get them and or require you to use the Diplo Visibility Mechanics more.

 

[Pietato]

No, to both. Having the option is good, and it being late game only would mean you miss out on it most games.

 

[nzcamel]

I don't see why anyone should have a problem with SS being a mode instead of "in the main game." If you turn it on, it essentially IS in the main game. If you can't turn it off, I think a lot of people would have a problem with that.

It does feel a little bit weird from a narrative point of view that secret societies which have an 18th or 19th century flavor are appearing the Ancient era, but given the way they are implemented, they kind of have to be available early to have the kind of impact on the game which they evidently want, for something that's the one and only new feature of a fairly expensive DLC release. Most games are already decided by the time a more "realistic" secret society should probably appear.

The only reason anyone I think would actually have an issue with it being in the main game is the Vampires. If they could have toned it down a little so that it wasn't completely implausible then I don't think it would be anymore disliked than religion is.

I don't think the fact that they're a game mode is a problem. If you like them, you'll just leave them on. People that don't like them can turn them off. Given the fact that there are some fantasy elements involved, and we've seen some of the reactions to vampires, it's understandable why they did it this way.

Ditto ^

For your second point, I haven't played enough with the SS yet to have a clear picture, but half of their promotions come in the late game. Especially the 3rd promotion seems to be quite powerful and game changing for most of them, so that should spice things up.

I'm more suggesting that the problem with the dilution of Gov promotions is that you get one every time you discover a SS, and only use one of them on the SS. The other three you can spend on any governor; which makes governors much more impactful right away, ergo making them and their effects less special. It is for this reason alone that I am likely to not play with the SS mode on again, despite liking everything else about them (vampires aside).

and it being late game only would mean you miss out on it most games.

Well, if that is the way it is looked at by a majority, then we can expect late games to remain more stale than they should be.

 

[acluewithout]

snip

Agreed.

The way the triggers work, the additional Governor promotions, and the lack of trade offs / counters are really the only reasons I don’t think I’ll leave this mode on permanently.

It’s a pity, because I think Secret Societies has turned out to be a really cool set of mechanics. It’s much cooler and more fun than I’d ever expected (and to be clear, the Vampires totally, totally work). The power levels of the promotions are also kind of okay - I don’t have a problem with these abilities in the game, because capitalising on the abilities themselves does at least require some investment.

But the fact discovering and adopting a Society takes so little initial investment, both in terms of how easy they are to “find” without any material investment beyond one brave scout, and in terms of Governor titles, plus the way the Governor titles economy is massively inflated and the lack of any material trade offs having a Secret Society, means the mode doesn’t really live up to its potential and sort of makes the base game too easy.

Yeah. I hope FXS give this game mode another pass. There is definitely something really fun in these mechanics. It feels like they just need another pass.

 

[Kibikus]

I'm more suggesting that the problem with the dilution of Gov promotions is that you get one every time you discover a SS, and only use one of them on the SS. The other three you can spend on any governor; which makes governors much more impactful right away, ergo making them and their effects less special. It is for this reason alone that I am likely to not play with the SS mode on again, despite liking everything else about them (vampires aside).

Fair enough, but later on you have to use "normal" governor titles to level up your society, so it balances out overall. Yes, you get some titles earlier, but having 3 governor promotions early is hardly game-breaking.

 

[nzcamel]

Fair enough, but later on you have to use "normal" governor titles to level up your society, so it balances out overall. Yes, you get some titles earlier, but having 3 governor promotions early is hardly game-breaking.

No, it doesn't "balance out overall", because (as far as I'm aware) they haven't removed any of the other things that give governor promotions.

As to game breaking, that is subjective. I mean everyone is operating under the same rules, so it isn't breaking the game by favouring anyone. But from a POV of that things have inherant value and it's good to have to work towards them and not get them cheap? Yeah, I have an issue with it from that POV. The game has that happening all over the show with production coming out the wazoo since the disaster effects were added (though maybe I should turn it down from level 4 - I think it's more rewarding than punishing myself); and since many buildings and improvements were giving buffs to make them produce more. Again, everyone's playing under the same rules...but there is something to be said for meaningful choice because you can't build everything. And that was being lost before this; and is even moreso with the SS mode on.

I mean part of the early game tension should be that you only have one Gov... so have to be a bit more careful with your cities if you're counting on Gov loyalty to keep them. But with SS mode on you can have 6 Gov's within the first era This takes away meaningful tension.

 

[Sostratus]

“Should secret societies be in the base game but only show up late?”
>mutually exclusive choice for focused bonuses
>choice causes you to focus on acquiring different economic things (ley lines, Trade route stacking etc)
>coming in late game to add a new spin

Congratulations, you’ve invented corporations.
The only difference is this time they aren’t being spread like religion.

 

[acluewithout]

Congratulations, you’ve invented corporations.

Achievement unlocked.

 

[nzcamel]

“Should secret societies be in the base game but only show up late?”
>mutually exclusive choice for focused bonuses
>choice causes you to focus on acquiring different economic things (ley lines, Trade route stacking etc)
>coming in late game to add a new spin

Congratulations, you’ve invented corporations.
The only difference is this time they aren’t being spread like religion.

My suggestion works, and it would be better for the game
With how corporations were represented in 4 you could have more than one in your civilization, so it's not quite same=/=same.

 

[Breadsmith]

I think they come an era or two too early. I've literally found the Hermetic order before finding any other civs, Cs, tribal huts, or barbs.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I voted no to both.
I don't mind if it's an optional mode because even if it is I can have it turned on all the time. Also I know there are people who don't want it and they are really game changing like the Apocalypse mode.

I'm more suggesting that the problem with the dilution of Gov promotions is that you get one every time you discover a SS, and only use one of them on the SS. The other three you can spend on any governor; which makes governors much more impactful right away, ergo making them and their effects less special. It is for this reason alone that I am likely to not play with the SS mode on again, despite liking everything else about them (vampires aside).

I also find it weird that you can basically get six governor titles in the Ancient Era. I think the solution should be is that when you discover a secret society you should be able to only use that governor promotion to appoint the secret society you want, and not appoint and promote other regular governors.
That way there would be no need to move Secret Societies to be discoverable in later eras.

 

[kb27787]

Just make it such that you don't require a governor promotion to join. (and so make it stop giving governor promotions)
Just one click to join, and then to level these governors up later maybe you need to spend faith (voidsingers), gold (Minerva), or production (hermetic)... and for the vampires maybe have the vampire get a certain number of kills.

 

[UWHabs]

Just some quick scanning with them, I do feel they come too early for a few reasons:
First off, as mentioned, they definitely have a very 18th-century flair, so going around with warriors and building farms while you have vampires roaming just feels... off. Perhaps they could have done them a little more like religion, where perhaps you find like a "societal pantheon" early in the game, but the actual societies don't come into play until, say, the medieval era. That might also help in balance, since you could be falling behind in a game but then catch the right society to rocket you ahead.
Also, the fact that you get a free governor title when you meet any of them just feels like you get too many titles too early. Suddenly the whole "get a government plaza early because you want that 3rd governor title" just is gone since you can almost always get at least 2-4 free titles early, the couple games I started I had way more than I even knew what to do with.

So yeah, if they came in as a mid-game shakeup of the game, that would be a welcome change IMO. I wouldn't terribly mind if they also came about somewhat naturally, so perhaps at the medieval era basically the map divided into 4, with each society spreading out from there, although obviously it would be unfortunate to not have a choice in the matter.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Just make it such that you don't require a governor promotion to join. (and so make it stop giving governor promotions)
Just one click to join, and then to level these governors up later maybe you need to spend faith (voidsingers), gold (Minerva), or production (hermetic)... and for the vampires maybe have the vampire get a certain number of kills.

I don't mind it requiring a governor promotion to join I just don't think you should use them for the other regular governors. And you shouldn't get another free one when you discover another secret society and already joined.
I like this idea of leveling up but maybe for Hermetic Order instead of production maybe you have to recruit a certain number of Great People which shouldn't be a problem with them.

Just some quick scanning with them, I do feel they come too early for a few reasons:
First off, as mentioned, they definitely have a very 18th-century flair, so going around with warriors and building farms while you have vampires roaming just feels... off.

Vampires like Vlad Tepes and castles are 18th century?
I don't mind them starting in the Ancient Era personally. It's not like there weren't bloodthirsty people in that era.
At least the castles don't come until the Medieval Era and the other unique infrastructure are just as appropriate for their time perioid, in my opinion.

 

[Victoria]

I am starting to feel the cup overflows in the early game.
There is no growth of mechanics through the game beyond a world congress which feels alittle early but does provide something to plan for.
I just feel that while SS were around earlyish they really only started having a historical effect in the medieval times.

Personally moving SS to the medieval and world congress to the industrial seems more balanced than what we have now.

 

[EmJayLambert]

No, it doesn't "balance out overall", because (as far as I'm aware) they haven't removed any of the other things that give governor promotions.

If you meet all 4 SSs you get 4 extra Gov titles.
The SS governor has 4 promotions. Yes you could ignore SS altogether and take the promos for your regular Govs but that seems a bit perverse, and you're missing out on the powers of the SS.
Overall, assuming you want to promote your SS governor all the way, there are no extra titles, they just come sooner.

 

[tedhebert]

I voted keep optional mode, but make it appear in the late game.

I really like the Secret Societies. I think they're fun. But yes, I also think early game is extremely fun already, and mid-late game a slog. So having SS appear
mid game would feel like a genius move to me.