Portugal too similar to Dutch?

[PurplyIcy]

Ok so after looking at the two Civs closely, I really think that Portugal is just a less militaristic Netherland. Both UAs are centered around obtaining luxury resources, both civs encourages entrepreneurship, both have good mid-game spike, both are better as a wide empire (imo), and both are sea-loving Archipelago types. Hell, they even have the same pattern of uniques: One UU boat and one UI . I mean yeaaa sure, the Dutch gives happiness while Portugese gives more money. But sometimes I think that their focuses and strong points are too similar, and that the game would define these two Civs apart more in a future patch.

 

[claudiupb]

If you look at it that way they are pretty similar.
I don't think Portugal has any real advantages for wide play, the UI comes way to late for that. The extra gold from trade routes doesn't scale because you get the same number of trade routes regardless of number of cities, having more gold is good, but the trouble with wide play is getting the happiness, the GPT is manageable.
The Dutch do have a good advantage for wide, as they get to use the extra happiness very early so it can help a lot, assuming you have trading partners (which would be quite hard if you REX, since all AIs will hate you for that).

 

[x2Madda]

I don't think Portugal has any real advantages for wide play

Have you actually, genuinely played Portugal?
The ability to gain luxuries from any and every city state on the map is so fantastical that I cannot even begin to go into detail!

 

[adsin15]

Playing a Portugal game right now. I got screwed bc there were only 3 CSs and 1 Civ within Cargo range so I had severe gold problems. The Civ was Russia and they had all Tundra and founded a missionary spamming religion so I had to declare war on them for like 200 straight turns and obviously I couldnt trade with them.

Using the Nau for trade missions is the only thing that got me through the midgame. The one that was furthest from my Cap granted 150 gold and 14 xp every time!

 

[inthesomeday]

You were running 3 naval external trade routes? How could you possibly have a gold problem?

And what tech is the feitoria unlocked at, it could be waaaaay too late to be significant for the early unhappiness dip. The mid ish pop happiness dip may be helped by it but there's other ways to do that.

 

[Browd]

Feitoria is unlocked by Navigation, so you are correct that it isn't an early game solution.

 

[inthesomeday]

Goodness, Navigation tech is extremely inoptimal for anything but islands play. I think the bonus provided by the Feitoria is magnificently interesting and probably very useful but if it's at Navigation, practically speaking, it's next to useless.

The Dutch UI, on the other hand, is debatably the best in the game. I once had a game as the Dutch with a terrible cap but because my expands had loads of flood plains I was able to stay competitive against a Russia with a great start and a Maya with two empires (having taken Byzantium). Plus, the two UIs do completely different things and encourage wholly different builds and tech paths and such, it's like comparing the Chateau and the Terrace Farm, totally different and with different styles.

The Nau/Sea Beggar comparison I get, they're both melee ship improvements with gold in mind. However the Nau is a little more relevant. The UAs are pretty different too, though, with a trade route focus and a resource trade focus. So the UUs are the only similar thing, really.

 

[sixty4half]

I don't see myself settling new cities after Navigation unless I'm playing Terra Maps. The Feitoria won't help you build a wide empire. Not saying that you can't. Just that I don't see Portugal as a must-be-played-Liberty civ. It can' work either way. Sure you can get money and happiness to support a wider empire (albeit you'll have to stall your growth just slightly in the early game) later, but Tradition can use that money, not for maintenance, but to buy extra units or buildings. And Tradition will get an extra golden age or two out of the massive happiness you'll have. I think the last time I played Portugal I was making 40 some happiness a turn. With Aesthetics that means you'll hit your Tier 3 Tenet a little quicker if you choose that route. So you can either play a Liberty game where you get to grow like a mad man during the mid and late game, or you can do a Tradition game where you get more money and Culture (Social Policy only Culture) as well as spurts of +20% Production/Growth and bonus Money every few dozen turns.

 

[Alkaid]

I just finished a game on deity with a pangea map as Portugal the other day, and I found I really enjoyed the Feitorias and that they were a big help mid game. Luckily about 5 of the 8-9 city states in my vicinity were coastal and I could use them. The Nau I didn't get to use that game, sadly, since my empire was mostly based around an inland sea with only a couple of my cities and 1 city state on it, but it's been decently useful in other games for me.


I got a pretty good tech pace going and a couple of my cities were eligible for observatories, so since I got observatories already, I just went for Navigation to get Feitorias after too. I agree it can be a detour, especially when it's a pangea map like I played, but it felt worth it seeing as I wasn't far off from it anyway.

I ended up winning a diplo victory since I couldn't be bothered to slug through Shaka's sprawling empire north of me to reach his capital. But before I was able to consistently secure the city states late game, I liked the Fetorias giving me lots of happiness from the ones I couldn't afford to out-pay the AI on in the mid game. It let me relax on making some happiness buildings to focus on other things I wanted to keep going.

I'd say the Dutch are more consistent since they only really hope to have Polder-able lands and their UA is usable any point in the game. Portugal really wants coastal access for Naus and coastal city states to put Fetorias on, and then both only come up mid-game. Their UA is ok but it doesn't feel like much extra gold to me. However, I still think I like Portugal better even if it's just Fetorias I really get to make use of. Not saying they're stronger, just they're less boring than the Dutch to me. Something's really satisfying about dropping a Fetoria at a city state allied with somebody else, and Nau's can be neat when you get a chance.

 

[inthesomeday]

Wait do feitorias need to be coastal? If so it's even more situational, I didn't know that.

 

[sixty4half]

Yeah, they have to be on a coastal tile that doesn't have a resource on it. You can't build it on top of resource improvements iirc.

 

[Alkaid]

Yep, I could of had twice the Feitorias if they didn't have that coastal tile requirement. It's a shame, and if you get a truly landlocked start area Portugal's relatively weak UA might be the only thing about them you can utilize for most of the game.

 

[inthesomeday]

I've always considered Portugal to be one of the weaker civs, but learning this about the Feitoria makes me consider them one of the absolute weakest. Down there with BNW France. That makes the Nau nearly the only applicable/consistent bonus they have.

 

[sixty4half]

I wouldn't say it's weakest. More like, we need to look at it similar to Byzantium, Ottomans, or England in that they are an OK civ that does much better on things like Small Continents, Large Islands, or Archipelago.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

Have you actually, genuinely played Portugal?
The ability to gain luxuries from any and every city state on the map is so fantastical that I cannot even begin to go into detail!

How is that an advantage for wide play? How does having more cities in any way shape or form change the Portugese UI?

Yes, wide needs happiness more desperately than tall. But the UI comes very late anyway, and is often useless, because the City States with unique luxes you really care about should be allied by that time anyway.

It is such a marginal bonus that saying "Portugal has advantages for wide play" really is twisting reality.

Now the Celts for example, they get happiness per city. The Persians get happiness per city. Egypt gets happiness per city. Those are direct advantages to playing wide.

I wouldn't say it's weakest. More like, we need to look at it similar to Byzantium, Ottomans, or England in that they are an OK civ that does much better on things like Small Continents, Large Islands, or Archipelago.

England does not fin in there, at all. They have a decent economic bonus (one additional spy) and one of the best unique units in the entire game which luckily is an upgrade to by far the most popular conquering unit in the game, the Crossbow. England is very strong even with landlocked play. The others.. not so much.

I personally don't think Byzantium are as bad as people make them out to be. Sure, if you're not getting a religion you're looking at a Civ with essentially no bonuses at all, but to me that is less than one in three games. And if they do get a religion having a double Pantheon is absolutely amazing.

 

[adsin15]

You were running 3 naval external trade routes? How could you possibly have a gold problem?

And what tech is the feitoria unlocked at, it could be waaaaay too late to be significant for the early unhappiness dip. The mid ish pop happiness dip may be helped by it but there's other ways to do that.

3 trade routes to city states is only like 60 gold if youre lucky.

I was at -100 gold per turn for the majority of the game. Having an army is expensive. itxa turn 460 now and im at -40 per turn

huge map, 12-25, standard

im closing in on all victory conditions now but i was going for culture. fricken iriquois are blocking me from winning though so i have to invade them.

I dunno how to prevent having massive gold negatives. i either have any army and huge negative gold...or i have 4 cities and no army with huge gold per turn.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

man I would get so incredibly frustrated at turn 460.. never had a game reach the 300s

I either went to space or just.. gave up. can't imagine investing that much time into a single game.

are you playing on epic or marathon perhaps?

 

[beetle]

I only recently learned that the Fedoras provide the luxes even during war with the CS. So that suggests that Portugal could go crazy conquering, not ever having to wait for cities to come out of resistance to manage the Happy.

The other idea I have for them, which I have never followed through on, is to liberally DOW any CS at any time. After the 3rd or 4th DOW, the CS all are permanently at war with you. But with Fetorias providing the main benefit from CS allies -- who cares? Need XP for you units? Kill CS units at your leisure. CS camping a great World Wonder? Take it. Alex has the cultural CS locked up? Kill them, 0 cps for Alex.

 

[adsin15]

man I would get so incredibly frustrated at turn 460.. never had a game reach the 300s

I either went to space or just.. gave up. can't imagine investing that much time into a single game.

are you playing on epic or marathon perhaps?

No its just a huge map with 12 civs and 3 continents. My continent was small and remote...I couldn't trade with anybody except 1 civ and 3 CSs until refrigeration got researched. I had to war that civ immediately bc they were religion spamming me with an awful tundra based religion that didn't help me at all.

I couldn't nail down a victory type either. I never played Portugal before so I started going domination but that became impossible when I realize how remote my continent was. Then I switched to Culture but for some ridiculous reason Hiawatha decided to go CV too (usually he is science) so I had to switch back to war footing and build up a navy to crush him...doing that right now which is terrible. Insanely expensive...-100 GPT for most of the game now. He has Full freedom cities with 250 defense each. I was first to Industrial Era so I went Order when I should have picked Autocracy. I figured the AI loves Order and, since I'm first and I have massive culture...I'll win! Nope. They all went Freedom and all of a sudden Hiawatha (with his ICS empire) had like every artifact on the map and was pushing 400+ culture to my 250ish. Everyone else in the game converted to Freedom and I now have -71 unhappiness from ideology. (+8 happy overall) But that destroyed my chance of a CV.

So then I switched to Science when I am almost done with. I have Xcoms and GDRs now...no military can challenge me. I would have just went Diplo Vic cause I have the Forbidden Palace but Alexander is in the game! ARRRRGGG!

So yea that's why its turn 460 on STANDARD...year 2022 or some crap...and I'm still bombing Hiawathas capital after nuking it but he still keeps spamming ground units so my guys can't get off the beach yet...

A few more turns and I'll be launching the spaceship.

 

[adsin15]

You were running 3 naval external trade routes? How could you possibly have a gold problem?

And what tech is the feitoria unlocked at, it could be waaaaay too late to be significant for the early unhappiness dip. The mid ish pop happiness dip may be helped by it but there's other ways to do that.

Also right now I have 10 external trade routes...still losing over 40 Gold per turn. That's with 12 cities and all of them have stock exchanges. I did not unlock Commerce though. I captured Big Ben from Theodora.

How anyone can manage a large empire and large military without having MASSIVE gold negatives is beyond me. I have units disband all the time from lack of money. I have to keep making more and pillaging/repairing every enemy tile I have a unit on in order to prevent it from happening. Liberty+Pyramids = 1 turn worker repair = totally super duper awesome