Possible Modmod - No double moves and no ranged strikes from cities

[andersw]

Tactical AI being good enough now, there are two things which have been bothering me:

* Double movement promotions. No penalty in certain terrain, fine. But moving faster in difficult terrain than in good terrain, come on ...
* Ranged strikes from cities. Dreadful UI and also unnecessary. You want to counterattack? Get a unit!

For me these are obvious improvements but I realize that not everybody sees it that way. So it's probably best to make a modmod first.

There are actually defines already to enable the desired rules: SANE_UNIT_MOVEMENT_COST and CORE_NO_RANGED_ATTACK_FROM_CITIES. However they currently cause inconsistencies because some elements of the game just don't have an effect anymore, text is wrong etc. So it's fine to play like this but I've been thinking about whether it's worth the effort to to make it an "official" way to play. So this hypothetical modmod would potentially include changes to some traits, promotions, defensive buildings. Ideally database changes only, no code.

The question is: am I alone with my ideas or are there other people out there who like this rule change and would like to get involved.

Disclaimer: Not saying anything will happen instantly, just testing the water ... I don't even have an overview yet of how much work this would be.

PS: If you don't like the idea, no need to post a reply.

As a mainly pangea type player I really like the no double move that would def be a mod mod I would use.
Its not that bad for regular troops but as soon as you add extra move like cavalry, +1 move promo, persia golden age etc it goes out of hand really fast.
I had a recent game where a 3 city backwards Iroquois suddenly exploded and took 1/3 of the continent and I definitely wont enable songhai until fixed.
Maybe things would work if these were +1 move instead of x2 move but it would probably be harder to code.

 

[Tekamthi]

I like the rationale behind this and it would get (again) my vote, but I think double movement on hills should be moved to T2 else with T1 only moving over a desert hill is cheaper than moving through flat desert (same with snow tiles). Marshes discount could then be moved to T1.

i think the idea is not to apply the "double moves" but to re-work the "ignore terrain cost" so that it only affects the cost of the specific terrain/feature named. As i read it, the cost of moving over the desert/snow hill would thus be same as moving over flat desert/snow with T1

 

[randomnub]

I understand but as it's written I think a 3 move T1 pathfinder would move 2 through flat desert but 3 through hilly desert.

 

[Anarcomu]

If the code is functional, I'll propose an alternative path for promotions. Something like this :

All Recon Units have base 3 moves and lose "Ignore Terrain Cost" (affects Pathfinder, Scout, Paratrooper, Special Forces, XCOM. Explorer and Commando are Unaffected).
All terrain ignoring abilities follow the rule : Costs does not consider the tile to have specific element.

• Trailblazer:
  • +1 Sight
  • Ignore ZOC

The "exploration group", each one require Trailblazer :

• Mountaineer :
  • Ignore additional costs from Hills. Can cross Mountains.
  • +10% when fighting in those terrain.
• Forester :
  • Ignore additional costs from Forest and Jungle.
  • +10% when fighting in those terrain.
• River-man :
  • Ignore additional costs from Marshes and Rivers, can embark.
  • +10% when fighting in Marshes, no penalty for attacking over rivers.
• Extreme-walker :
  • Ignore additional costs from Desert and Snow.
  • +10% when fighting in those terrain.
  • Name is lame, anything you could come with would do.

Scouting require either promotion from the "exploration group", or Survival II :

• Scouting :
  • +1.
  • +1 sight.

Frogman promotion from congress would have "River-man" as prerequisite.

EDIT : Merged Scouting I and II, because scouting II is weaker than trailblazer, and it keeps the same amount of promotions as now (6 totals). Also add note about Frogman

 

[Anarcomu]

This set max moves for scouts to 4, they are never quicker than cavalry in open terrain. Also, something I dislike with the proposal is that trailblazer is strictly better than scouting. If you go for survival, you have no interest to pick scouting above trailblazer, even thought scouting have a heavier requirement.

 

[Tekamthi]

I understand but as it's written I think a 3 move T1 pathfinder would move 2 through flat desert but 3 through hilly desert.

okay i think you are interpreting that all movement cost would be eliminated if one of the features is present in the tile? ie desert hill would be reduced to 1 movement cost after T1 cuz of the ignore hill bonus?

double-check my reasoning on this: status quo movement cost: flat desert = 2 moves, hill desert = 3 moves. this implies the hill component = 1 added move cost, and the desert itself also = 1 added move cost (on best terrain movement still costs 1 move). So with T1 ignoring the hill cost only, moving on desert hill would be 3 - 1 = 2 = flat desert cost per hill desert plot. The number of moves on the unit itself just gets consumed by these costs, so either way 3 move unit is moving 2 desert plots with T1, 3 desert plots with T2. Its only T0 where there'd be a difference from the hills or no hills aspect: 1 plot in hill desert or 2 plots in flat desert w/ no promos at all. Does that make sense or do I not understand the intention?

 

[Anarcomu]

There is already code for ignoring specific terrain, the Inca have it (they ignore hills).
In this case, they ignore all costs when moving into hills. So, the only example we have makes them move into desert hills for 1.
I do agree with you that ignoring costs from terrain makes more sense, hence why I made a precision.

As for @pineappledan POV :
pineappledan

The same thing "ignore movement penalties" always has: It costs 1 movement point to move in that terrain

So we don't share the same opinion on how the feature should works. Although in his case, it is based on existing code, so ...

(couldn't properly quote a message from a closed thread, I've done as good as I could)

 

[Tekamthi]

I see, yes my take doesn't match all here then, I can understand the concern then with the T1/T2 disparity mentioned above. Solvable by affecting just cost from that feature/terrain, not all costs, as you mentioned.

 

[pineappledan]

We already tried something like this. We had essentially a version of this proposal during congress 1 to rework recon line movement. The problem is that the ignore specific terrain thing that the Inca does is trait-locked, and making a promotion version of it that could work for different terrain and feature types is flippin’ hard. So hard that ilteroi already tried it once, burned out on it and dropped it

 

[Tekamthi]

We already tried something like this. We had essentially a version of this proposal during congress 1 to rework recon line movement. The problem is that the ignore specific terrain thing that the Inca does is trait-locked, and making a promotion version of it that could work for different terrain and feature types is flippin’ hard. So hard that ilteroi already tried it once, burned out on it and dropped it

yes but we are trying to not-so-subtly hijack ilteroi's modmod thread to cajole him into taking another look

 

[Rekk]

I had a recent game where a 3 city backwards Iroquois suddenly exploded and took 1/3 of the continent and I definitely wont enable songhai until fixed

Does this have anything to do with double move?

 

[pineappledan]

Iroquois use forest jungle as road, which a separate, 3rd method separate from double move and ignore terrain.

 

[azum4roll]

I had a recent game where a 3 city backwards Iroquois suddenly exploded and took 1/3 of the continent and I definitely wont enable songhai until fixed.

Neither of them have "double move" as their key component. They treat trees/rivers as roads instead, and those don't stack with double move/ignore terrain.

Anything that removes the free "ignore terrain cost" on recon is a no for me. It greatly unbalances starts (imagine starting in a marsh/jungle hill mix), and recon experience is a snowballing mechanic. Other civs will have 3 ruins, met 3 City States and have 2 promotions before you get to have 1.

 

[jwfoo555]

I like Tekamthi's Recon Specialization mod so far, makes it feel like scouts actually spend time learning how to adapt to particular types of terrain (and AFAIK can't get movement bonuses to all terrain types).