Prince: Keeping a good economy while expanding? (game save included)

post the original start, is there a way to restart the game from the beginning?

As long as you have not started another game, the 4000BC save is always in your Saves>Auto folder.

My has a good point in that you should probably just focus on peaceful expansion to 6 to 8 cities for now by 1AD, as opposed to early warfare (which has not really been early in your case). Your basic mechanics of the game are just so off right now that I think we should just work on that until you learn how to read your land, build an economy while expanding, and tech and trade appropriately. First 100 turns or so (maybe more on Epic - wish you'd play normal speed) Practice this for a while and then you can take your game wherever you wish.

Big and Small may not be the best map choice for now. Pangaea or Continents would probably be better for learning.

Again, post your saves.
 
uh.... i like to play aggressively... if ai has no units why wouldn't you attack them?

The thing is...you are not really playing aggressively and you are playing very poorly. Hate to be blunt but it is true. Step back and learn the game. Trust me, all that will come.
 
Really depends on your goals, we are just here to help you ;)
If you learn other thingies about the game better, you can up your diff. level and have more fun against well defended AIs. After all we have the brains, the compi does not ;)
 
uh.... i like to play aggressively... if ai has no units why wouldn't you attack them?

Killing off an AI who has no unit isn't really aggressive play, is it? ;) It's best to learn the game mechanics and then own the AI using for example Rifles against Longbows.
And attach a save by selecting manage attachments in the advanced post option and upload the civ gamesave.
Well, this is relative to when you are going to war. Better said, is 6 to 8 cities by 1AD one way or the other. 3 or 4 cities can be a good early base to start early wars, but yeah, in this case it is not good if you are fight 800AD wars with Swords and just got your city 6.
Fair enough, should've made myself clear that 6-8 cities peacefully was easily plausible in this specific scenario. :)
I tried looking through his events log, but couldn't really see his tech order. Not sure about the dates on epic, but it seemed like he popped a tech or two which made it a bit confusing for me to see because I honestly have no idea how he has no currency at this point in time yet.
 
Two points about playing aggressively.
First, some people are advising you to avoid it on lower difficulties because it gives you unworkable habits for higher difficulty. The whole idea behind warring in Civ4 is to spend the minimum turns, hammers, and general investment possible while still getting a reliable victory; on Prince, that threshold is so much lower that the whole balance between whether wars are worthwhile and what you need to bring along to win is thrown off-kilter.

The second point about aggressive play is a bit simpler. Good "aggressive" play doesn't mean you spend half your game at war. The AI is terrible at reading human military buildups and predicting DoWs before they happen, but it's not too bad at panic-building a military once it's actually attacked. So you wait until you have a force that can smash through and quickly achieve whatever your war objectives are, and don't start fighting before that. If they attack you, you usually wipe out a stack or two, maybe take a city, then at the soonest possible point take a 10-turn peace treaty to buy time to build up before going solidly on the offensive (even paying them a modest amount for the treaty). It's quite possible to have a very "warlike" game in which you spend less than 10% of the turns actually at war.
 
okay, i'll start playing on noble. standard speed. avoiding war. i'll update here once in a while.

Play your next game here as a shadow game . Best way to learn. We'll get you up to Emperor in a week. Plus, it allows us to "rail" on you even more ;) :lol: ...just kidding. Seriously though, do at least one shadow game here and you won't regret it. Just need to be patient and play short turn sets...as well as accepting of advice and criticism...and railage.
 
Haha, i already started and got pretty far. i like to think I'm doing pretty well... check out my save. I am totally willing to do a shadow game, let me know if i should start over or continue on from here. seriously though... emperor in a WEEK?????
 

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For me any other victory other than domination or conquest bores me. My biggest civ failure is warring and I practice on it. A common mistakes I make is attacking too early that you can't finish them off. Never go to war if you don't plan to take something from them either by wiping them out or vassal. Always check AI techs and military resources so you know what you're up against while scouting. Don't waste a unit if you know he's going to lose, ex. Horse archers vs spearman. Lol sometime I just don't have the patience and taking cities without bombardment when they have defensive units/culture so I lose a lot of units.
If you like warring as much as me, then don't rush expansions unless your economy can take it. Thank the Ais for improvements and settling there. Take from them everything and leave them with nothing.
 
Much improvement, although much to improve.

I hope you notice that you are at 6 cities by 550BC and your economy is fine. You already have Currency and 1 turn from CoL. Two very important techs that you were not even close to last game. So in terms of economy, your previous quote:

but i can already tell you my economy is going to be dead.

has been proven untrue.

You are set up now to do whatever you want to do here. (Actually with Carthage that close to me, he would be dead around about now..ha...but yeah, we want you to do what you are doing here...good job)

Okay, so what you can work on:

1) I'd really like to see more workers here with 6 cities, especially with all the jungle. 8 to 10 would be a good number right now. 1.5 workers per city is the rule but sometimes you need more. Chop them out or get in the habit of 2 pop whipping workers.

2) When passively whipping, whip 2 or more citizens. You can even grow into unhappiness and whip unhappy citizens (free production). Each citizen is worth 30hammers. If you whip say 2 citizens that is 60hammers. You always get that. So if you whip optimally you get a nice bit of overflow hammers. Try working on the math for the overflow as it helps you complete stuff. I can help you with that later and have written up examples. BUG really helps a lot in this case and, again, I highly recommend that you use it.

3) My guess is that you think city overlap is bad. This is actually not the case and becomes even more necessary as you move up due to the distance maintenance. Where possible look to overlap cities so that they can take advantage of improved resources while cities in general have to stay small. There's a lot of advantages to this including reduced maintenance, streamlined worker management, working high yield tiles that another city can't work currently due to whipping or running specialists, and tag teaming cottages so they continue to grow. You don't always have to overlap cities but it can be a good thing.

4) One reason I mention this is that I really don't like Nicaea's placement. Better place would have been 1S or 1S1E. Then the city can share a pig to get off to a fast start and grow onto the juicy gems faster once you get them improved. It can also share iron at times for a production boost. Overall with that overlap you can share tiles with your cap, get the city off to a faster start, and have much more flexibility.

5) Same for Adrianoble. Not bad, but ask yourself if maybe 2 cities could have gone down there. The clams have been rendered useless.

6) Nicomedia is not wise. You might get away with it on lower levels, but you should avoid settling in the AIs face unless you already are in war mode with them as the target. You also did not settle with food in the first ring....thus, slow start for that city. Better spot may have been settling on the horses north of Nicaea for the fish and ivory. More compact empire without pissing off the AIs.

7) Thess is okay and a nice second city. Grabbed horses with excellent food. This is what you want in a second city, something that is highly productive immediately. However, note that it is battling culture with Carthage. If you settle that close to an AI be prepared, especially if they are a not so friendly leader like Hannibal. By the way, he is in WHEOOHRN mode and will be attacking you soon. Again, something that you can identify easily with BUG mod.

8) Please tell me you got Fishing and Hunting from Huts and that AH was actually your first tech. (actually I recommend playing without huts and events for now)

9) It is great that you get Currency fast, but I would go straight to Alpha first on this level. It will allow you to see where the AIs are in tech, maybe backfill a few techs with friends, like Iron Working and the religious crap. You can also bribe AIs. Tech trading that early will really boost your game. On this level, once you backfill a few techs then you will just start blowing the AIs away and really want have to trade much with them. Maybe gift them old techs to get diplo depending on what VC you are going for.

10) Note that Babylon has the great wall. This means Nicodemia is in danger from barbs swampage, but is defended poorly. Just keep that in mind.

Overall, taking these 93 turns as an exercise, you have done far better than your last game. I hope you see that. Now take it a step further by trying some of the things that I mentioned above. As for this game, you are in a winning position. 6 cities, good economy, and you can go stomp Carthage before they do the same to you. Horse Archers!

As for shadow game, start a new game for that one. Post a save and get advice before playing each 20 to 25 turn set, post report and save, repeat. You can get very focused and detailed advice at each step. Things will start to click.

edit: Also note that those foreign trade routes are help you as well. Good job getting connected early. The sooner the better. Trade routes should never be underestimated.

edit2: Try get 2 scientists running asap in you cap to get that first GS for an academy. It will curb growth anyway at a point the happy cap is low and the cap can usually be fairly productive running 2 scientist while working 3 to 4 improve tiles (depending on happy cap). If you have wiggle room in another city with good food, try to get another couple of scientists running there, which should give you another GS a bit later at a good time. Often that 2nd GS will be used for a good bulb. Of course, always look for a good GP farm site.
 
ex. Horse archers vs spearman.

I kill spears with Horse Archers all the time. The key to HAs is speed and tactics. Find their metals and kill those off quick to minimize spear spam. However, i'm not afraid to take on spears. You are going to lose some HAs, but you will have a lot of them anyway. When you war with HAs you war with only HAs.
 
I kill spears with Horse Archers all the time. The key to HAs is speed and tactics. Find there metals and kill those off quick to minimize spear spam. However, i'm not afraid to take on spears. You are going to lose some HAs, but you will have a lot of them anyway. When you war with HAs you war with only HAs.

couple of cheap chariots in the mix is fine too... archers usually have precedence over axes on defense, but once you drop them under <1 with suicide the axes stands out and should be easy work for mop up with chariots.

for example in 12 units stack 9 HA's, 3 chariots, one of them can be medic.
 
Good to hear i'm improving. i appreciate all the help btw :)

okay so in terms of workers i really need to keep reminding myself to build more, i always forget about how useful chopping is. just a bad habit.

i'm not sure if I'm using slavery right... whenever i have unhappiness i just whip whatever I'm working on. maybe you could explain some more in depth strategy?

City overlap is another bad habit (thats why i usually built really far cities). so i can share resources with two cities?

fishing i got from a hut. i did ah and mining first. hunting i did waaaay later. i think i used warriors for too long, probably was not a smart idea... but did not end up mattering.

In terms of tech, i'm thinking i should go for calendar soon, then alpha. depending on how many turns alpha takes. i could get alot more improvements with calendar.

Getting the capital should be easy, I pride myself on my enormous stacks. Should i go for more?

Lastly, the concept of specialists has always confused me. can you explain or send me a link on how it works? i usually just completely ignore it.... i think i read somewhere that you do not need to use them.

also, should i start a new thread for a shadow game? or just post here?

edit: keep in mind i'm using Justinian so i get a bonus on settlers, not sure how much this affects my game. if it would be more helpful in the long run, i could switch leaders. maybe like Caesar or Mehmed?
 
okay so in terms of workers i really need to keep reminding myself to build more, i always forget about how useful chopping is. just a bad habit.

Habits are made to be broken ;)

i'm not sure if I'm using slavery right... whenever i have unhappiness i just whip whatever I'm working on. maybe you could explain some more in depth strategy?

Slavery and Overflow takes practice. Over time you will get a feel for it. Again, get the BUG mod. Whipping unhappy citizens is always a good idea, but you don't always have to wait for that. Whipping off unimproved tiles is good to. Calculating optimum Overflow takes practice. I've written up some stuff which is link in the following single post:

Whipping/OF stuff

Of course, sometimes you are just whipping in an emergency or to get an army out quickly. Good things to whip are things like Granaries (unless EXP in which case a single chop will finish it). Always note hammer bonuses on buildings. 2 pop workers if you need them especially if cities are unimproved. If IMP, whip workers with OF into settlers. If EXP, whip settlers with OF into workers. The trait bonus does apply to OF hammers. You will get stuff out much faster.

City overlap is another bad habit (thats why i usually built really far cities). so i can share resources with two cities?

Absolutely. As long as 2 cities share certain tiles, you can adjust the citizens as needed in the city screen. For instance city 1 has lots of food (corns, pig, etc), City 2 has lots of hammer improvements or commerce. It's fairly early and happiness is at a premium. City 1 starts working 2 scientists and stalls or slows growth at happy cap. City 2 can take advantage of some of that food City 1 is not working to grow faster onto improved tiles or to set up whips to get in some infra or more workers/settlers. Whatever you need at the time.


fishing i got from a hut. i did ah and mining first. hunting i did waaaay later. i think i used warriors for too long, probably was not a smart idea... but did not end up mattering.

hmmm...could have sworn I saw Hunting as a second tech. Sounds like you got it from a hut too and forgot.

Warriors are fine for much of the early game for MP, barb defense and spawnbusting. Just depends on several factors if you want advanced units online. Do you need to rush a close AI or is the nearby AI(s) rather unfriendly psychos? Will Barbs be more of an issue than warriors can handle, i.e., lots of unsettled land, AI builds GW close to you.

In terms of tech, i'm thinking i should go for calendar soon, then alpha. depending on how many turns alpha takes. i could get alot more improvements with calendar.

You really should have alpha earlier. You want to know what techs the AI have and possible backfill a few. Calendar is not bad though is you have lots of calendar resources. (Note that Calendar is an AI priority tech, so on higher levels the human will often just wait to trade for)


Getting the capital should be easy, I pride myself on my enormous stacks. Should i go for more?

First of all, try to scout the AI lands before you setup to attack them. Know where there strat resources are, layout of cities, etc., so you can plan your attack. Your scouting is still relatively poor, although not bad for this date. If I have horses I might pump out a chariot and send him around or later just pop out a scout or 2 and put them on auto explore. Really depends on your surroundings and map.

Still it is better not to attack AIs completely blind like you are.

You build large stacks...true... but your warring looks bad regardless from what I've seen. You need to gauge the AI strengths, available units, etc and plan for war. HAs are always strong in the early game. If not, get construction and build stacks of half Axe/half Cats and use that siege - plus a counter unit or 2 as needed like spears.

Also, with really close AI you can early rush with chariot or axe stacks. Too late for that now and like we said we wanted you to focus on expansion for now.

As or Hanny, he is going to attack you so you need to start building advance units asap whether you attack or not.

Read my whip articles above for info on getting out an army quickly with whipping. If you attack Hanny, I would go with HAs.

Lastly, the concept of specialists has always confused me. can you explain or send me a link on how it works? i usually just completely ignore it.... i think i read somewhere that you do not need to use them.

I really would like to know what stuff you are reading, because you are getting some very very very very very bad advice.

Specialists and Great People are huge to the game. Philo is right up there with FIN as the top 2 traits for a reason.

As mentioned, you want to get those first 2 scientists running asap, usually in your cap, after writing. That first GS can be used on an Academy, usually in your cap. This provides a nice research boost early and throughout the game, especially if your cap has Bureau Ox potential. You could also bulb a strat tech to get an advantage, but probably don't need to do that on low levels like Prince. Starting the practice of getting that first Academy for now is a good idea.

Then you try to find a good location for a GP farm to run more specialists. Usually 3 or more good food resources like seafood, corn, pigs, etc. to feed specialists. After CoL, you can use Caste System temporarily to pump out great people which is great to do in a Golden Age. With those GPs you can set up some nice bulb paths to things like Liberalism and really blow the game away. On higher levels it is key to get that advantage and win the game.

I don't have any links I know of at present, but we can help you learn some in a shadow game. Check the War Academy for some articles. This is a big thing you need to learn.

also, should i start a new thread for a shadow game? or just post here?

I would start a new thread

edit: keep in mind i'm using Justinian so i get a bonus on settlers, not sure how much this affects my game. if it would be more helpful in the long run, i could switch leaders. maybe like Caesar or Mehmed?

Leader does not matter, although you certainly want to learn to take advantage of traits. Mehmed is one of my favorites, but you can use any one you wish.
 
When i get back from work, yes i am on civfanatics at work, I will start a new shadow game, and see where i can take this one. I'll try and figure out this specialist stuff, i honestly dont know where i read it, i think its safe to assume i read it wrong lol. I'm feeling pretty confident though, i think speed has been important in my improvement. i usually take my sweet time getting every last tech. speaking of which, i haven't touched religion..... founding one could help my economy could it not? just a thought.

edit: i figured it out, i read that i could either use a specialist economy or a cottage economy, and i took cottage economy to mean basically what i was doing (aka nothing)... which clearly i am not.

edit 2: shadow game on noble or prince? oooorrrrr.... monarch???? ............. emperor? ...................dare i say.....diety?
 
edit 2: shadow game on noble or prince? oooorrrrr.... monarch???? ............. emperor? ...................dare i say.....diety?

You want to make a shadow game on the difficulty you are currently trying to beat. Seeing what other people did differently and where you are compared to them will help you find and fix some things you may be doing incorrectly.
 
Definatey been a massive improvement in the latest game :goodjob:
i haven't touched religion..... founding one could help my economy could it not? just a thought.
Not touching one was a good move! Until you really know what your doing I would avoid even considering religion founding for economic purposes like the plague, merely chasing an early religion (delaying worker techs as a result) can cause incredible damage to your economy before you even consider the costs of a GProphet!

Thats not to say never found one, its fine to found Conf or Tao as a result of hitting those useful techs first, even if its intentional to get a religion on an isolated island, but shrining a religion simply isn't worth it unless it spread a lot without you building missionaries (Autospread or ai does it for you!).
i read that i could either use a specialist economy or a cottage economy
These are old outdated terms that don't really have a place in BTS, if they ever did at all as their main accomplishment was confusing readers :lol:
In practice effective economies are universally a hybrid of various different outputs, coming from mines, farms, specialists, trade routes, buildings and anything else you can think of, you don't even need to build a single cottage and its still going to be a hybrid! Your typical 'SE' often runs cottages in a bureacracy capital too :p

Its important to note that the effective use of specialists for GP farming is a cornerstone of high level play, regardless of what 'economy' model your running.
 
ha, got it. so if i wanna build a gp farm, my city should have lots of food and a specific kind of specialist depending on what my civ needs? should i be using this or is it more of a high level tactic?
 
Yeah, as GPH stated, whether running SE or CE, CE does not preclude the use of specialists and great people. SE is a more advanced economy type that really takes a while to master. I would not necessarily say they are outdated concepts, but focusing more on a cottage economy is best for less experience players. Still, you very much run and use specialists and great people in any type of game.

The ability to bulb advanced techs around mid-game with great scientists just can't be beat by normal research at the time. The advantage is huge and should never be overlooked. Great Merchant trade missions can provide a huge boost mid to late game. If you are going Culture victory, which likely you've never tried, you are going to want to produce buttloads of Great Artists.

ha, got it. so if i wanna build a gp farm, my city should have lots of food and a specific kind of specialist depending on what my civ needs? should i be using this or is it more of a high level tactic?

I would not call GP farms a high level tactic. How you use it, specialists and great people can get more advanced, but even at a basic level if you are producing great people there is always something you can do with them that is highly beneficial to your game. It will lift you to a new stratosphere on Noble/Prince level and allow you to win on higher levels.

Don't overthink the concept at this time. You have a lot thrown at you now. The important thing is to practice and run a few shadow games. A GP farm will usually have 3 good food specials, but sometime you have to deal with less depending on what your land provides. It may very well be that enemy capital you captured. Heck, sometimes it is your starting capital and you move the cap later to a better Bureau location.

The main point though is that in most games you are going to want a good National Epic city with high food to run many specialists at times. Of course, in straight up early conquest games you may never think about it.

Again, try to get that first GS out of your cap asap, and maybe have some scientists running elsewhere concurrently if you have the luxury. Oft times this happens before you even get a GP farm setup, but ideally it will be one of your first 6 cities.
 
I have actually won a cultural victory on noble before. from what i remember it was a pretty early victory too.

anyway, expect an update in around 4 hours. i gotta fit a solid 2 hours of civ in while at the same time getting 4 hours of painting in. not to mention the olympics. i am a busy man.... not really, i should probably work on my social life
 
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