Questions on Representation (Liberty policy)

InFlux5

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So Representation says that "each city you found" will reduce the cost of policies. Is this only for cities I found after adopting the policy? Or is it retroactive, so that all cities I've founded benefit from the policy?

Based on the wording I have been assuming it's not retroactive and only applies to cities founded after the policy. If this is the case, do you find yourself rushing to this policy when you go Liberty? I still don't, since I want the faster Settlers of Collective Rule, and I feel like I'll benefit from the free Golden Age later in the game.

Thoughts?
 
I've wondered this myself, but I'm guessing since it says "each city you found" instead of "each city you own" it only applies to new cities.
 
It's actually cities you own (puppets excluded because puppets don't increase policy costs). They aren't setting flags to which cities you built after this policy.

There is similar behavior with the opener of Tradition. (If you went something else and late in the game adopt it, your cities will expand by 1 hex per turn until they catch up)
 
It is retroactive: all it does is reduce the factor that increases policy cost from city count by 33%.
 
It is retroactive (i.e., covers cities founded or acquired before the policy is taken), but has only prospective effect (i.e., there is no "rebate" for culture previously spent on policies before the policy is taken).
 
Related, but much more difficult question, at what point is it to late to take the policy? Assuming a 4 city tall tradition game, how long does the policy take to pay for itself?
 
Related, but much more difficult question, at what point is it to late to take the policy? Assuming a 4 city tall tradition game, how long does the policy take to pay for itself?

Because each policy increases the cost of all following policies, never.
A policy helping with culture must either be on the way to something else or provide a secondary benefit to pay for itself.
 
Assuming a 4 city tall tradition game, how long does the policy take to pay for itself?

As said, never. The policy is meant for wide empires since each city is producing less culture on average AND you have a greater culture penalty (plus the golden age/production bonus gives Liberty a shot in the arm when it needs to be building early/important buildings). You could take it as Tradition solely for the Golden Age if you have nothing more pressing but it's not worth taking for the culture decrease alone.
 
The only you should think of taking this policy as a Tradition civ is if you are playing the old GnKs culture victory - Utopia project.

Another question for a Liberty civ is this - Are you better off accumulating 500 happiness and getting your first Golden Age, than finishing this policy or take it ASAP.

The free Golden Age isn't really free, it will bump up the cost of the next one. And I also think it is better delaying Representation until you have more cities going. Your golden age will be much better if you have more early cities that all have monuments (more culture), more population (more production and gold).
Delaying Representation until you get your first Golden Age can mean you can get a 24 turn GA which I think is much better.
 
Well, especially on higher difficulties, you almost always want to finish Liberty ASAP for the Great Person (Great Scientist as a generic science boost, possibly Great Engineer if you really think you need a specific early wonder that's hard to get). So, yes, Representation is usually the last (or worst case second to last) policy taken, but you don't want to start investing into another tree first.
 
Well, especially on higher difficulties, you almost always want to finish Liberty ASAP for the Great Person (Great Scientist as a generic science boost, possibly Great Engineer if you really think you need a specific early wonder that's hard to get). So, yes, Representation is usually the last (or worst case second to last) policy taken, but you don't want to start investing into another tree first.

Errrr this really depends on the circumstances. If you want an early academy or you want the engineer to rush the NC quickly then yes fill out liberty fast otherwise I don't see an issue with delaying representation if you want to put some early policies in piety for instance. Usually you finish Liberty in the medieval era and most of those Wonders are pretty mediocre so delaying the free engineer until the renaissance era can be better.
Truth is I don't think there is an exact formula to finishing Liberty.
Tradition is straight forward as you want the free aqueducts asap but with Liberty its really the settler and worker bonus that you want asap. There is no reason to rush representation so I would tend to put some policies into Piety since you really need a religion to play wide just to offset some of the happiness problems you will inevitably encounter.
 
Related, but much more difficult question, at what point is it to late to take the policy?

It is never too late to take the policy. It discounts all future SP costs, and does not depend on the player to found cities after taking the policy to provide its benefit. The benefit is poorly worded. I suppose going OCC would means that it has no effect (other than the Golden Age).

Truth is I don't think there is an exact formula to finishing Liberty. Tradition is straight forward as you want the free aqueducts asap but with Liberty its really the settler and worker bonus that you want asap.

Agreed, not being locked into the tree until it is done is one of the more compelling aspects of Liberty IMHO.
 
Because each policy increases the cost of all following policies, never.
A policy helping with culture must either be on the way to something else or provide a secondary benefit to pay for itself.

The golden age which includes boosted culture certainly is nice, but reducing the cost of all future policies by some percent must eventually pay for itself. If you get 100 more policies, say 20% off must add up to some free policies as well as offsetting the cost of that last policy which is now one step more expensive.

Doing some simple (and I know incorrect math), if the cost per policy of 20 polices ranges from 2000 to 22000, that total is 252000, 20% of that is 50400 so I get that last one for free plus another. I don't have time to use the real equations mentioned above on the Mathematics page, but I have to believe it will eventually pay for itself.
 
No. Because the SP costs increase by a factor >1.

As a simple comparison, 75% of (n+1)^2 is always greater than n^2 (for n > 1). Increasing n does not help!

The full table and formula is here:
http://civilization.wikia.com/wiki/Mathematics_of_Civilization_V

Sorry, just not getting this. Are the policies cheaper after the policy is taken or not? There is no mention of this policy on the mathematics page to see how it affects the cost but if it is cheaper taking the aggregate of any savings must add up. Yes each policy is more expensive than the last, but I am saving a little with each one and all those pieces must add to a whole policy at some point.
 
You are getting a flat discount, but the SP cost is rising exponentially. Each policy is still significantly more expensive than the last, just not as by much as it would be without Representation.

The cumulative running savings never adds up to the cost of the next policy. So you start out behind, and the amount you are behind to unlock the next policy steadily increases. An extra policy needs to provide a huge culture boost to pay for itself. In a similar vein, the culture boost you get from opening honor or tradition do not come close to paying themselves off. The Representation policy in Liberty is actually worse in this regard because it does not provide additional culture but only a discount to future costs. But of course, it is not an extra policy, so no harm to effect.

It is kind of ironic that, from a culture perspective, that a tree with four policies would be a better hypothetical pick than a culture-oriented policy in tree with five policies.
 
No. Because the SP costs increase by a factor >1.

As a simple comparison, 75% of (n+1)^2 is always greater than n^2 (for n > 1). Increasing n does not help!

The full table and formula is here:
http://civilization.wikia.com/wiki/Mathematics_of_Civilization_V

Sorry, just not getting this. Are the policies cheaper after the policy is taken or not? There is no mention of this policy on the mathematics page to see how it affects the cost but if it is cheaper taking the aggregate of any savings must add up. Yes each policy is more expensive than the last, but I am saving a little with each one and all those pieces must add to a whole policy at some point.
Indeed, wayneb64 is correct: you have to calculate the culture costs using a sum with a variable endpoint.

However, the actual time it takes to save a policy's worth of culture from Representation is quite long, especially if you consider how the number of cities in your empire can change between the time you unlock Representation and the end of the game. The equation is: (culture saved from Representation on c number of future policies) >= (culture cost of the cth future policy) + (culture cost of Representation). This expands to:

Where k is number of policies unlocked before Representation, c is the number of policies unlocked after Representation, and n(x) is the number of cities the player has x number of policies after having unlocked Representation.

I did a calculation where n(x) is constant, k is set to 2 (the minimum amount of policies before unlocking Representation), and the sum is approximated to an integral, and my results indicate that you would have to have at least 3-4 cities settled from the start of unlocking Representation to gain a free policy's worth of culture by the time you finish both Liberty and Rationalism. Setting k to 4 (Representation unlocked before Meritocracy) means you'd have to have at least 4-5 cities settled from the start of unlocking Representation, setting k to 5 (Representation unlocked as last Liberty policy) means you'd have to have at least 5-6 cities settled from the start of unlocking Representation.

You are getting a flat discount, but the SP cost is rising exponentially. Each policy is still significantly more expensive than the last, just not as by much as it would be without Representation.

The cumulative running savings never adds up to the cost of the next policy. So you start out behind, and the amount you are behind to unlock the next policy steadily increases. An extra policy needs to provide a huge culture boost to pay for itself. In a similar vein, the culture boost you get from opening honor or tradition do not come close to paying themselves off. The Representation policy in Liberty is actually worse in this regard because it does not provide additional culture but only a discount to future costs. But of course, it is not an extra policy, so no harm to effect.

Basically, you can end up saving at least one free policy's worth of culture from Representation, but you'd either have to cripple yourself with a bunch of early cities early on to do so or have to wait until Information Era before getting your free policy's worth of culture.
 
So Representation says that "each city you found" will reduce the cost of policies. Is this only for cities I found after adopting the policy? Or is it retroactive, so that all cities I've founded benefit from the policy?
The true answer requires another term. The cost of policies is founded based on neither the current situation nor in a way that applies to all your cities. The cost of policies is calculated from a formula that depends on the number equal to 'the most cities you ever owned' (annexed or originated). This term introduces an extra cost as a function of that number, f(C).

Representation substitutes 0.67*f(C) in place of f(C) in that determination of social policy costs.

So as you can see, in some way, Representation reduces the degree by which cities increase the costs of social policies. The inaccuracy of that is just that cities do not increase the costs of social policies, because C is not a count of your cities, but is the number equal to 'the most cities you ever owned'.

Based on the wording I have been assuming it's not retroactive and only applies to cities founded after the policy. If this is the case, do you find yourself rushing to this policy when you go Liberty? I still don't, since I want the faster Settlers of Collective Rule, and I feel like I'll benefit from the free Golden Age later in the game.

Thoughts?

Representation should always be the last policy you ever take in Liberty. The math shows that not only does Representation -> next policy come later in total than just taking that next policy, but in fact Representation -> next policy -> N more policies cannot save up as much culture as the cost of the policy after that, meaning that cutting Representation out in the first place gets you the whole string sooner. And this is all that Representation does. By cannot I mean practically cannot. If the climb were steeper it would be literally cannot; even the rising savings are not necessitated to catch up to an exponentially rising hump. As a simple example, ... the actual exponential curve 2^x is the sum of its entire history, 0 to x-1. Any P% of those costs summed up could only result in P% of 2^x, which is going to be less than the modified 2^x*(1 - P%) in every case that P is less than 50.

Delnar's estimates say an extra policy might turn up by the time of the Rationalism finisher. So into a tenet? So now you gotta ask if the conditions for that occurrence - the overexpansion early - costs you indeed more of an opportunity than the culture costs. Heck, it could be strictly worse than that, if your steady development and lack of emergency response owed to 5 terrible cities, no national wonders, and collosseum maintenance , produces better culture over that span of time anyway. And then making the policy pop into the ideology instead of too early is a challenge too; speeding up culture and slowing down Rationalism sounds like a formula for failure on that point.

And the variability owed to cities is a factor too! The cost determination results in the paradox that social development slows your social development. So adopting policies quickly just means they're getting out of reach faster. You're better off accepting high costs and not adopting policies so fast, to let you have a boom of cultural output with favorable terms in the formula later.
The anthropology of Social Policy adoption is off.

Representation's side effect is one that is sometimes worse than nothing, because golden ages are always better to get later, sometimes pitifully ineffectual early, and the Golden Age it triggers is not free.

When you consider that Liberty track's only benefit is itself just an award of great people points in the Capital, which ALSO are awful early, it means that Liberty should be delayed finished, and Representation should come last.... and maybe only the four other policies in it should be taken ever.
 
Indeed, wayneb64 is correct: you have to calculate the culture costs using a sum with a variable endpoint.

Thanks for running the math!

...setting k to 5 (Representation unlocked as last Liberty policy) means you'd have to have at least 5-6 cities settled from the start of unlocking Representation.

That is not bad really, and a pretty typical use case I think!

... or have to wait until Information Era before getting your free policy's worth of culture.

Still, so much better than I thought!
 
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